Supermarkets? No, thanks, cut out the middlemen

trimnut2 · Post by **trimnut2** » 13 Dec 2008, 07:35

Vortex, your last sentence broke me up. Thanks.
In the same vein a firewood merchants advertises in the local paper:
" Organic Firewood; burns with a warm inner glow."

Your comments concerning likely social structures and outcomes I agree with.

biffvernon I intended none of my comments on this issue to carry any implications on food values for the poor. In Australia Farmers' Markets have much to do with middles class social pretentions, nothing to do with small scale farming viability and little to do with improving the food quality for all. The one attempt to develop outcomes that were both related to small scale farm viability and food values for the poor was junked by the stall holders.

Andy Hunt and others mention Cuba as an example of a productive city scape. Few mention that environmentally the conditions can be so different that any comparison to Cuba is meaningless. When I see bananas and paw paws growing on London balconies I will accept that Cuba is a legitimate example for comparison. I can think of few places that would be more attractive to develop a city based agriculture than Havana.

Andy Hunt all the best with your project.

Andy Hunt · Post by **Andy Hunt** » 13 Dec 2008, 09:30

trimnut2 wrote:Andy Hunt and others mention Cuba as an example of a productive city scape. Few mention that environmentally the conditions can be so different that any comparison to Cuba is meaningless. When I see bananas and paw paws growing on London balconies I will accept that Cuba is a legitimate example for comparison. I can think of few places that would be more attractive to develop a city based agriculture than Havana.

Agreed - Cuba has a year-round growing season which of course helps!!

But market gardens used to be a major feature of British urban areas, supplying a good proportion of the food eaten in cities. Could be once more, I reckon.

Ben · Post by **Ben** » 13 Dec 2008, 19:50

JohnB wrote:
biffvernon wrote:This is what we're doing to keep Tesco away.
I liked Louth when I had a wander round a few months ago. It would be a shame for yet another town to be spoiled.

Shame the web site doesn't work properly if you have JavaScript disabled!

I gather that Tesco is set, by 2012, to become the second biggest retailer in the world (behind Wal-Mart).

As long as we've still got cheap energy Tesco and the other supermarket empires will probably keep growing. What worries me is that they tend to undermine all alternative food delivery models. What happens if the mega-supermarkets fail us? Who do we then turn to supply us with our needs? We seem to have all our eggs in one Tesco basket.

trimnut2 · Post by **trimnut2** » 14 Dec 2008, 04:19

Andy Hunt wrote:
Agreed - Cuba has a year-round growing season which of course helps!!

Not to mention an agricultural society with many insights to what is involved, excellent soils and wonderful rainfall. A great place for gardening.

Andy Hunt wrote: But market gardens used to be a major feature of British urban areas, supplying a good proportion of the food eaten in cities. Could be once more, I reckon.

Andy Hunt, a while ago I spent some time looking closely at English small farms experience particularly around London. As I understand things didn't it fade rapidly after the second world war? Indeed many of the older farmers lamented it's heyday passing a good deal earlier than that. In terms of total population I should imagine that small allotments may not be able to contribute much. Am I wrong?
Talking of growing seasons my interest in English horticulture was piqued by cold frames and glass cloches. The ways of curiosity.

RenewableCandy · Post by **RenewableCandy** » 16 Dec 2008, 13:49

Andy Hunt wrote:temporarily" converted into community allotments.

I like that. Income Tax is a "temporary" measure to fund fighting, iirc, the "Hundred Years' War"

DominicJ · Post by **DominicJ** » 16 Dec 2008, 14:14

In terms of total population I should imagine that small allotments may not be able to contribute much. Am I wrong?

Allotments are very good at providing a good variety of vitamins, minerals and flavours, but bad at providing energy.
An allotment is usualy 300sqm, 0.06 of an acre
I think I recently worked out half an acre of potatos would provide enough energy for 2 people, and thats about as energy dense as food gets.

I like that. Income Tax is a "temporary" measure to fund fighting, iirc, the "Hundred Years' War"

I think it was repealed, and came back in 1802 to fight Napolean, and then stayed.
Not sure about that though, it may have just gone up then

JohnB · Post by **JohnB** » 16 Dec 2008, 14:39

They say that the only two certainties in life are death and taxes, so it seems logical that they're so closely linked.

trimnut2 · Post by **trimnut2** » 16 Dec 2008, 18:53

DominicJ wrote:
Allotments are very good at providing a good variety of vitamins, minerals and flavours, but bad at providing energy.
An allotment is usualy 300sqm, 0.06 of an acre
I think I recently worked out half an acre of potatos would provide enough energy for 2 people, and thats about as energy dense as food gets.

DominicJ, Agreed. Energy is where the issue is. I am curious about the last comment concerning energy density. Is there a simple reference point to examine food energy densities of various crops? TIA

emordnilap · Post by **emordnilap** » 16 Dec 2008, 18:59

DominicJ wrote:I think I recently worked out half an acre of potatos would provide enough energy for 2 people, and thats about as energy dense as food gets.

Nuts? Seeds?

DominicJ · Post by **DominicJ** » 17 Dec 2008, 11:31

[quote="trimnut2]DominicJ, Agreed. Energy is where the issue is. I am curious about the last comment concerning energy density. Is there a simple reference point to examine food energy densities of various crops? TIA[/quote]

I used wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parsnip#Nu ... properties
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potato#Nutrition
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onion#Medi ... h_benefits

Ect.

Re: Nuts/Seeds
Any easy to grow in allotments?
And does wheat produce more energy than potato, I know it does per 100g, but I thought potato yielded better

RenewableCandy · Post by **RenewableCandy** » 17 Dec 2008, 21:04

JohnB wrote:They say that the only two certainties in life are death and taxes, so it seems logical that they're so closely linked.

You mean death is temporary too?

JohnB · Post by **JohnB** » 17 Dec 2008, 21:39

RenewableCandy wrote:You mean death is temporary too?

According to belief systems that are into reincarnation

MisterE · Post by **MisterE** » 17 Dec 2008, 22:46

Great thread. One thing I can confirm is that both Tesco and Asda are going to grow next year and are going for gold, with Asda (Walmart) pushing hard.

CountingDown · Post by **CountingDown** » 07 Jan 2009, 11:13

trimnut2 wrote:
DominicJ wrote:
Allotments are very good at providing a good variety of vitamins, minerals and flavours, but bad at providing energy.
An allotment is usualy 300sqm, 0.06 of an acre
I think I recently worked out half an acre of potatos would provide enough energy for 2 people, and thats about as energy dense as food gets.

DominicJ, Agreed. Energy is where the issue is. I am curious about the last comment concerning energy density. Is there a simple reference point to examine food energy densities of various crops? TIA

John Jeavons' "How to Grow more vegetables" is the book you want. It has figures for almost every vegetable/grain/pulse that you could want to grow. Has Calories/acre/year figures etc. Splits them into Calorie / Nutrition / Nice to have categories - higly recommended.

DominicJ · Post by **DominicJ** » 07 Jan 2009, 11:27

Groovey. thanks for the heads up.