By now it should be clear that SWMBO and I are tired of the South-East England rat race and are looking for a way out. I've come across some semi-deserted villages in inland Spain whose various mayors are offering free property on condition you live there permanently and put a couple of kids into school.
Points for: Free property, rural economy, possibility of a cheap land holding and moving closer to self-sufficiency, in the same country as (if a little far from) my mother and brother, solar energy, more space, clean air, etc, etc.
Points against: finding work or starting a business, disruption, bureaucracy, once-for-all move, Spain's general economic situation, energy dependency, being very isolated after an Alex Scarrow Event...
What do people think?
Migration to Rural Spain
Moderator: Peak Moderation
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featherstick
- Posts: 1324
- Joined: 05 Mar 2010, 14:40
Migration to Rural Spain
"Tea's a good drink - keeps you going"
Spains in properly bad doo doo and its populace has a history of killing each other. People have commented that children arent going to school because their parents cant afford to buy them shoes, for example.
But solars a realistic proposition over there
It wouldnt be my first choice, but if can be "more spanish than the spanish" and have a big chucnk of capital after selling up, should be relativly easy.
Contadino would probably be your best bet.
But solars a realistic proposition over there
It wouldnt be my first choice, but if can be "more spanish than the spanish" and have a big chucnk of capital after selling up, should be relativly easy.
Contadino would probably be your best bet.
I'm a realist, not a hippie
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emordnilap
- Posts: 14815
- Joined: 05 Sep 2007, 16:36
- Location: here
Re: Migration to Rural Spain
It's all down to how much money you have and how little you can spend.featherstick wrote:What do people think?
If you have money, the nous to grow some/most of your own food and the inclination to do without as much as possible, go for it. Add in a willingness to enjoy interacting with the natives and you can't go far wrong.
A basic diet and shelter is all you need. The rest is what you can make it.
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
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Blue Peter
- Posts: 1939
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- Location: Milton Keynes
Try looking at: Downsizing Abroad.
A couple of people (Gawber and Luis?) used to do a consultancy service for people trying to move to the Asturias, I believe, but I can't see any evidence of it at the moment. You could always PM Gawber and ask,
Peter.
A couple of people (Gawber and Luis?) used to do a consultancy service for people trying to move to the Asturias, I believe, but I can't see any evidence of it at the moment. You could always PM Gawber and ask,
Peter.
Does anyone know where the love of God goes when the waves turn the seconds to hours?
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RenewableCandy
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woodpecker
- Posts: 851
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- Location: London
I lived in various parts of Spain for 15+ years (from age 6 months to age 41). I've also run a business (and a company) in Spain for almost a decade.
And have family in various parts (grandparents Spanish and Basque, parents are Basque and Spanish; ex is Catalan), and property too (mostly in the north; I'm currently developing some of it after 70+ years in the family!).
I spend a lot of professional life translating court cases and legislation in Spain and Catalan areas regarding property (from Andorra to the south coast). Which are very expensive for the people involved. As well as years as a business journalist there. And I've also been a postgrad lecturer at places like the University of Barcelona.
I would say:
- don't even think about it if you are not fluent in Spanish
- Spain is hugely 'regional', much much more than anything in NW Europe. (They would say nations, not regions.) Think twice if you are not fluent in local language where you are planning to settle (e.g. Galician, Basque, but Catalonian especially. Note Aragonese is not dissimilar to Catalan; but Basque is more like Finnish in terms of difficulty).
You absolutely need to be able to speak local language, particularly in rural areas, where local languages are very strong. Language is a great leveller, and some of these areas are going to be dead set against incomers even before you arrive. (Being identified with the *wrong* group can lead to people being killed by nationalist groups - it's *that* serious. There have been people I know that this has happened to.)
- of course, UK property laws do not operate in Spain; they really are very different, a completely different legal tradition (Napoleonic).
You may find that you acquire some land that is registered in one local property register but the other local property register (yes, there are two in all locations) does not record your land plot as you have it or your purchase. There are really all kinds of pitfalls that you must understand. You want to be able to go through everything with a fine-tooth comb *yourself* (a local adviser will not do)
- bear in mind that Spain (nation and regions) is very fond of retrospective legislation. Regional governments are pretty powerful. That means regional legislation that applies to you many years after you buy/build. Which may mean you have to tear up all you have created. Not fair, but that's the way of southern Europe, happens all the time. Especially popular in Valencia region, Catalonia has done the same, and some others not far behind
- bear in mind that the way of life is different. There are three months of the year when nothing much can happen (the so called 'horario intensivo' from June to Sept inclusive, which is when everyone goes on holiday) for example.
An example of loyalties: the Catalan national slogan actually say 'fem pina, fem pais', which is a bit like saying 'we'll make a (spiky) pineapple and build our country/defend our country against allcomers', and you will often find yourself shat on because you are not local, not part of the pina (and for no other reason). The idea of meritocracy is really not part of the Spanish tradition
- corruption is really extraordinary rife. Perhaps no more than in rural France or Italy or Turkey (if you are used to that - I certainly have had similar experiences there). But it's really no different from India in that respect. And quite different from UK, Finland etc. (N vs S)
And have family in various parts (grandparents Spanish and Basque, parents are Basque and Spanish; ex is Catalan), and property too (mostly in the north; I'm currently developing some of it after 70+ years in the family!).
I spend a lot of professional life translating court cases and legislation in Spain and Catalan areas regarding property (from Andorra to the south coast). Which are very expensive for the people involved. As well as years as a business journalist there. And I've also been a postgrad lecturer at places like the University of Barcelona.
I would say:
- don't even think about it if you are not fluent in Spanish
- Spain is hugely 'regional', much much more than anything in NW Europe. (They would say nations, not regions.) Think twice if you are not fluent in local language where you are planning to settle (e.g. Galician, Basque, but Catalonian especially. Note Aragonese is not dissimilar to Catalan; but Basque is more like Finnish in terms of difficulty).
You absolutely need to be able to speak local language, particularly in rural areas, where local languages are very strong. Language is a great leveller, and some of these areas are going to be dead set against incomers even before you arrive. (Being identified with the *wrong* group can lead to people being killed by nationalist groups - it's *that* serious. There have been people I know that this has happened to.)
- of course, UK property laws do not operate in Spain; they really are very different, a completely different legal tradition (Napoleonic).
You may find that you acquire some land that is registered in one local property register but the other local property register (yes, there are two in all locations) does not record your land plot as you have it or your purchase. There are really all kinds of pitfalls that you must understand. You want to be able to go through everything with a fine-tooth comb *yourself* (a local adviser will not do)
- bear in mind that Spain (nation and regions) is very fond of retrospective legislation. Regional governments are pretty powerful. That means regional legislation that applies to you many years after you buy/build. Which may mean you have to tear up all you have created. Not fair, but that's the way of southern Europe, happens all the time. Especially popular in Valencia region, Catalonia has done the same, and some others not far behind
- bear in mind that the way of life is different. There are three months of the year when nothing much can happen (the so called 'horario intensivo' from June to Sept inclusive, which is when everyone goes on holiday) for example.
An example of loyalties: the Catalan national slogan actually say 'fem pina, fem pais', which is a bit like saying 'we'll make a (spiky) pineapple and build our country/defend our country against allcomers', and you will often find yourself shat on because you are not local, not part of the pina (and for no other reason). The idea of meritocracy is really not part of the Spanish tradition
- corruption is really extraordinary rife. Perhaps no more than in rural France or Italy or Turkey (if you are used to that - I certainly have had similar experiences there). But it's really no different from India in that respect. And quite different from UK, Finland etc. (N vs S)
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vtsnowedin
- Posts: 6595
- Joined: 07 Jan 2011, 22:14
- Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont
Before you go, find out what happened to the last tenant'/owners of that "Free "property. You might share their fate so unless it's a pleasant and long old age you might not want to follow in their footsteps. Also are there any other expatriates that are a couple of years in on this deal to compare notes with. A two week vacation in the area would let you feel things out before you commit and burn your bridges.
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woodpecker
- Posts: 851
- Joined: 06 Jan 2009, 01:20
- Location: London
Hmm, I wrote about 3,500 words about water in Spain for publication around 1998... I interviewed some UN water dudes expert on Spain at the time, in and outside Spain.RenewableCandy wrote:Isn't water going to be a bit of an issue? If you crack that, though, you speak Spanish, and the rest of your family (including the Feathertwiglets) are game, then you might be sorted.
That was at a time when (a) the islands in the Med were often getting drinking water on ships (b) the Spanish government leaders were standing at farmer sites guaranteeing free water to everyone (yay) (c) the Iberian water basins meant water was a huge issue for everyone outside the Ebro basin and all poeple in other basins were screaming for water (d) the Spanish govt were talking about trying to drill a water tunnel through the Pyrenees from France to try and get people drinking water at vast expense and (e) the Spanish government was giving water away to golf course operators across the country at zero pee per square metre for evah.
Since then Spain has built various desalination plants. But, they are very, very energy intensive.
http://www.thatroundhouse.info/matavenero.htm
looks interesting
Spain's near to north Africa so Id be concerned by invasion although the same thing may well be happening here
Can you be armed
looks interesting
Spain's near to north Africa so Id be concerned by invasion although the same thing may well be happening here
Can you be armed
"What causes more suffering in the world than the stupidity of the compassionate?"Friedrich Nietzsche
optimism is cowardice oswald spengler
optimism is cowardice oswald spengler
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featherstick
- Posts: 1324
- Joined: 05 Mar 2010, 14:40
Well, they are thought-provoking posts, woodpecker.
I speak Spanish, it has been fluent and could be so again. I've been visiting the place for many years, my parents live and work there, I've travelled extensively in the country.
I've never really come across the antipathy to outsiders you mention (except in San Sebastian, but what would you expect?). I've once had a barbed remark about "why don't you speak Catalan, not Castilian?".
Certainly if you are going to move anywhere you'd be daft not to research the place and the legal set-up, including water rights, property rights, who the local influencer and power-broker is, and you'd need a very well-developed integration strategy too.
We've spent the weekend looking at the offers and frankly, it's not surprising the towns are desperate to get someone, anyone, living in them. Little settlements on the central plateau that made sense in the 15km per day burro-based agricultural economy, but are now bypassed by roads and technology, and left to wind, rain, and depopulation. Obviously, anywhere that people actually WANT to live will cost money, and only places where people don't want to live will take such drastic steps. Somewhere nice in the Alpujarras with a sea-view, I must see what abandoned villages exist there.
I speak Spanish, it has been fluent and could be so again. I've been visiting the place for many years, my parents live and work there, I've travelled extensively in the country.
I've never really come across the antipathy to outsiders you mention (except in San Sebastian, but what would you expect?). I've once had a barbed remark about "why don't you speak Catalan, not Castilian?".
Certainly if you are going to move anywhere you'd be daft not to research the place and the legal set-up, including water rights, property rights, who the local influencer and power-broker is, and you'd need a very well-developed integration strategy too.
We've spent the weekend looking at the offers and frankly, it's not surprising the towns are desperate to get someone, anyone, living in them. Little settlements on the central plateau that made sense in the 15km per day burro-based agricultural economy, but are now bypassed by roads and technology, and left to wind, rain, and depopulation. Obviously, anywhere that people actually WANT to live will cost money, and only places where people don't want to live will take such drastic steps. Somewhere nice in the Alpujarras with a sea-view, I must see what abandoned villages exist there.
"Tea's a good drink - keeps you going"
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thecoalthief
- Posts: 96
- Joined: 31 Oct 2010, 01:00
- Location: winchester
Two things to consider.
1.Desertification due to climate change.
http://www.euranet.eu/eng/Dossier/UN-Cl ... tification
2.Climate refugees moving north from Africa.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6228236.stm
http://www.economist.com/node/15464909
3.Sangria tastes like gnats pee.
You may want to ask yourself why villages are standing semi deserted.
1.Desertification due to climate change.
http://www.euranet.eu/eng/Dossier/UN-Cl ... tification
2.Climate refugees moving north from Africa.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6228236.stm
http://www.economist.com/node/15464909
3.Sangria tastes like gnats pee.
You may want to ask yourself why villages are standing semi deserted.
people don't change when they see the light,only when they feel the heat.
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RenewableCandy
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