How hardcore are your preparations?

[JohnB]

There is a lot in the Bible which can be brought to bear on the subject, whether it be in the matter of the evils of greed and over-dependence on material things, even to matters of not destroying the environment (albeit perhaps simple things such as not destroying trees when razing enemy territory or leaving the land fallow every few years to avoid wearing it out, not mowing the edges of your field (the importance of which is only recently being re-learned) etc.) which are issues which can and are brought to bear on this topic.

And missionaries, by the way, do some things which can be recognisabley good, including humanitarian work and more.

There is a lot in the Bible that is common sense. I think I adhere to the Ten Commandments more closely than many so called Christians (eg The Crusades, The Spanish Inquisition, Northern Ireland troubles, Catholic priests buggering small boys), but I do it because they are common sense, and not because they were carved in stone on top of a mountain.

And many missionaries do good things, but they could do the good stuff without the religion bit.

[Ludwig]

He's been asked nicely, several times, by different people to desist preaching. Those requests have been ignored. So who's being intolerant?

I haven't read all of his posts, but those that I have read merely express the way that his beliefs affect his attitude to Peak Oil.

Can one not make a statement like "I believe in God" without being accused of preaching?

As for "asked nicely"... Not as far as I can tell. The guy only has to mention his faith for you lot to go for him like a pack of hounds.

[Ludwig]

And many missionaries do good things, but they could do the good stuff without the religion bit.

They COULD, but generally they don't. Few non-religious people make real sacrifices for anyone outside their own families and circles of friends. I mean sacrifices, not just giving twenty quid a month to Oxfam or going on Amnesty marches.

And no, I'm no different from other agnostics or atheists in this respect, but I'm prepared to acknowledge some of the positive aspects of religion.

[Ludwig]

Good grief, this lyniezian troll is far more annoying than RGR ever was. Please STOP with the God stuff, and take your tedious proselytising to a religious forum.

He's expressing an opinion that is entirely relevant to the topic under discussion.

The relationship between PO and religion is at best highly tenuous.

No it's not. One's attitude to the possible end of civilisation is going to be profoundly affected by one's views on the fundamental meaning of existence.

All religions have at their heart the idea that there is a realm of existence beyond the material. If one thinks this is the case, then whether one is Christian, Hindu, Moslem, or just a mystically-inclined new ager, one will inevitably see the cataclysm that is looming on the horizon differently to a person who thinks that the only suitable reactions to it are futile attempts to control it, or despair.

There are more sophisticated views of God than of an old man with a beard - although the latter may be a useful analogy to convey an intuition that is largely inexpressible.

Of course many religious people lack the imagination or the self-awareness to engage with this deeper aspect of religion, and instead get hung up on often trivial points of dogma.

My own view is that faith can significantly affect events in both the individual life and in the world at large. I'm not saying that believing in God will save humanity - in a way that is rather difficult to describe, I suspect that free will and predestination may be two sides of the same coin. I could give a long description of how I came to this hypothesis, but I suspect you have already stopped reading.

[biffvernon]

Jesus said...

many very good things. Such a pity that so many of those who believe him to be a god don't follow his teachings.

[Aurora]

So why is peak oil and religion such anathema ?

Because there's no obvious connection between those two subjects, unlike the other subjects you mentioned. You might as well start a discussion about peak oil and unicorns. Lyniezian is a self-described evangelical and simply can't resist any opportunity to ram God down everyone's throats. It's unnecessarily divisive and bad form. Unfortunately, that's what evangelicals do - they just can't help themselves. And like the Terminator, they just keep coming back, regardless of what you do or say to them.

And don't get me started on missionaries.

I totally agree. My feelings about religious zealots and missionaries are admirably summed up in the lyrics of the song 'Natives' by Christy Moore:


For all of our languages we can't communicate
For all of our native tonques we're all natives here
Sons of their fathers dream the same dream
The sound of forbidden words becomes a scream
Voices in anger, victims of history
Plundered and set aside grown fat on swallowed pride

With promises of paradise and gifts of beads and knives
Missionaries and pioneers are soldiers in disguise
Saviours and conquerors they make us wait
The fishers of men they wave their truth like bait
With the touch of a stranger's hand innocence turns to shame
The spirit that dwelt within now sleeps out in the rain

For all of our languages we can't communicate
For all of our native tongues we're all natives here
The scars of the past are slow to disappear
The cries of the dead are always in our ears
Only the very safe can talk about wrong or right
Of those who are forced to choose some will choose to fight
For all of our languages we can't communicate

[goslow]

the idea of leaving it up to the big guy upstairs seems to be totally neglectful of personal responsibility. Why bother doing anything at all if you think God will sort it out in the end?

Most Christians would agree with this point. In fact there is a lot in the Bible about taking responsibility for doing good etc, and also some of Jesus' teaching implies being wise with your resources and looking after yourself as well as your neighbour. At the same time Christians believe that God is active in the world and does help people in various ways, and ultimately all good things originate in God. But most of us don't expect God to do everything for us.

I like what Ludwig said a few posts back. The guy has a right to mention he has a faith and how it affects how he responds to PO. I don't detect overt evangelism here! On the other hand the posts of other folk seem to me to be proselytizing for the anti-religious view.

[RenewableCandy]

Well yes but, for example MikeP and Tracy, and yourself iirc, are strong religious believers also but no-one's blasted you iirc, for the simple reason that you haven't gone on about it in every post. It provides a framework for your life, good for you, but you know that we all want to hear about the practical (or other philosophical) bits so you guys oblige.

[Catweazle]

I won't argue the fact that many Christians, and fans of other teams, do some good work. They do.

But they also do some pretty stupid things too. For example, joining a forum focused on saving the planet by switching to renewable energy and suggesting that we might leave it to God to fix. Duh.

I'm not going to argue against the existence of God, that would be stupid and arrogant, but I will argue with anyone who thinks it's sensible to sit back and leave our future in His hands.

Even if I was religious I couldn't claim to know enough about His plan to know that He doesn't want us to do our best to save ourselves.

Religious or not, preparing is a no-lose gambit. What's the worst that can happen ? God gets cross because you installed cavity wall installation ? I don't think so.

[the_lyniezian]

I won't argue the fact that many Christians, and fans of other teams, do some good work. They do.

But they also do some pretty stupid things too. For example, joining a forum focused on saving the planet by switching to renewable energy and suggesting that we might leave it to God to fix. Duh.

I'm not going to argue against the existence of God, that would be stupid and arrogant, but I will argue with anyone who thinks it's sensible to sit back and leave our future in His hands.

Even if I was religious I couldn't claim to know enough about His plan to know that He doesn't want us to do our best to save ourselves.

Religious or not, preparing is a no-lose gambit. What's the worst that can happen ? God gets cross because you installed cavity wall installation ? I don't think so.

Which is why I am certainly prepared- and admitted elsewhere that I really need to be doing a lot more. (I'm just not keen on the whole doomer-survivalist ethic, 'tis all. Admittedly though I didn't mention that a preacher named David Wilkerson, who's been preachingon/prophesying impending doom for years, did suggest keeping an emergency store of food and the like, though it hasn't been without some criticism as is the fact he hasn't always got stuff right in the past.)

Incidentally I think we're fine for insulation here, although my mother if pressed thinks the stuff in the loft might be getting a bit old.

(We had since I got into this forum a couiple of weeks back in passing discussed the possiblity of getting solar panels on the roof or even installing a wood burner in the hearth- though it would mean re-opening the flue and what we can burn in it in the suburbs I don't know!)

[RuncornBridge]

OK, I'm going to stick my head above the parapet. I've been a believer for over 30 years now and believe that we're living right at the end of this world, as we know it.

When I learned about PO and CC it struck me how similar the effects/outcomes on man and the planet were, compared to what the Bible says will happen. I feel, personally, that they may be one and the same thing.

End.

[caspian]

I've been a believer for over 30 years now and believe that we're living right at the end of this world, as we know it.

People in every generation have thought that, and the world kept on turning and life went on regardless. The same will happen into the distant future long after you and I have gone.

In a sense, though, the end of the world as we know it, is a given. I wouldn't want it any other way. Who wants to live in static world where nothing changes?

[Andy Hunt]

OK, I'm going to stick my head above the parapet. I've been a believer for over 30 years now and believe that we're living right at the end of this world, as we know it.

When I learned about PO and CC it struck me how similar the effects/outcomes on man and the planet were, compared to what the Bible says will happen. I feel, personally, that they may be one and the same thing.

End.

You're not the only one to whom this has occurred RB.

Interesting how our agricultural fertilisers are made from natural gas, in another sense fossil fuels generally have served as an admirable fertiliser for the growth and blossoming of the technological human species.

But as in agriculture, the fertiliser is only applied once, and when the crop is ripe and ready for harvest, only the best part of the plant is kept. The rest is returned to the earth as either ash or compost, and is recycled.

I wonder if the harvest of humanity will be those sustainable technologies, cultures and nations which manage to engineer a union with the regenerative evolutionary power of the planet and the energy available naturally from the living planetary system, and so remain as a technologically advanced civilisation after the removal of the fossil fuel fertiliser which enabled us to get this far.

This kind of outlook would see apocalyptic Christianity find union with Darwinian evolutionary theory and natural selection. The meme which seeks union with nature will be selected by nature for survival. Judgement Day.

And a lake of fire and sulphur sounds very much like it has something to do with oil, a very heavy and sour destiny for those cultures which cling vainly to the fertiliser without putting down sustainable roots of their own. George Bush et al spring to mind, as well as Middle Eastern cultures which depend on oil to support their religion and philosophy.

Yep, the parallels seem pretty clear to me too.

[kenneal - lagger]

Who wants to live in static world where nothing changes?

Most would accept that, over one where the changes are for, as most people would see it, the worse. The inhabitants of this forum may accept that growing more of our own food, living more simply, working less and with less stuff in our lives is a good thing but, in general, most of the world will not.

T'others expect that wages will be more each year; their houses will be worth more each year as will their pensions. They will have more money to go shopping with and there will be more stuff to spend that money on. After all, that's the purpose of life, init!

On another tack, we could have very much better lives in the future with much more stuff, using less energy of any sort, if we could crack the way nature produces things at room or body temperatures with no aggressive chemicals or waste products. That should be our Holy Grail. Organic agriculture is just one facet of that "cup that runneth over".

[the_lyniezian]

Admittedly though I didn't mention that a preacher named David Wilkerson, who's been preachingon/prophesying impending doom for years, did suggest keeping an emergency store of food and the like, though it hasn't been without some criticism as is the fact he hasn't always got stuff right in the past.)

Caveat: Generally I do think David Wilkerson is a good preacher, and has got a lot of his prophesyings right too. His book The Vision aems to have a lot of what we're experiencing, or not similar to what a lot of people are talking about here, although perhaps not containing views the non-Christian would care to read.

(It might be also noted for reference that Wilkerson is perhaps better known for his work among teenage gangs and drug addcts in New York back in the sixties- there's also a book an film on it, The Cross and the Switchblade.)