I would like to know where Reuben Woods has been reading about government seizing our land" post peak.
Looking around the web prices for farmland sure seem higher than his quotes and from mrkinnies' remark it could be better to buy a lot of land near a small convenient community rather than a smaller area of land with buildings.
Once we are post peak and oil production is actually decreasing every year I think these kind of life changes won't seem so extreme to anyone paying attention."
[PVpost] Reuben Woods project
Moderator: Peak Moderation
murpen: an advantage of setting up a limited company to invest in could be, we could fill in the end of year PAYE return (simple since no-one will be taking any salaries) online and the Inland Revenue will pay you to fill in the end of year returns online for the next few years- a total of ?575. Nice little bit of extra cash- if it's still worth anything- for the community (just have to go to a library or something to fill it in)
One thing you need to consider when you're buying your land, I think you'll need planning permission to build any type of dwelling on it.
My friend who works within the town planning department of a large city council in England, tells me it's quite difficult to get permission to build housing on greenfield land in northern England. It's far easier to build on greenfield sites in the south east where there's housing shortages, although of course land in this region will cost more.
I'm not too sure about the position of building housing on Scottish greenfield sites but I wouldn't be surprised if they've got tight controls there, given the low population density in Scotland as a whole and the lack of requirements of new housing outside the Edinburgh/ Lothians area.
Of course, you could go ahead and build anyway, but you risk incurring the wrath of the local council who may well decide to send in the bulldozers once they've been converted to biodiesel.
My friend who works within the town planning department of a large city council in England, tells me it's quite difficult to get permission to build housing on greenfield land in northern England. It's far easier to build on greenfield sites in the south east where there's housing shortages, although of course land in this region will cost more.
I'm not too sure about the position of building housing on Scottish greenfield sites but I wouldn't be surprised if they've got tight controls there, given the low population density in Scotland as a whole and the lack of requirements of new housing outside the Edinburgh/ Lothians area.
Of course, you could go ahead and build anyway, but you risk incurring the wrath of the local council who may well decide to send in the bulldozers once they've been converted to biodiesel.
Everybody's situation is different. I think that what we, as a 'On Line Community' should concentrate on is sharing ideas and solutions. Buying a wedge of Devon or Scotland seems to me to be a bit utopian.
But if someone could design a Sterling Engine that could sit on top of a wood burning stove and provide sufficient power for a fridge and a freezer. That would be nice.
Isolation I think might be a problem, Communities will be vulnerable unless they have a sufficiently large population (and enough guns to defend themselves) However. if we site these 'pioneer Communities' close to 'viable' towns and lease some of the land to the local community as allotments then the 'people' can defend the land.
If anyone fancies buying some land close to Guisbrough on the edge of the North Yorks Moors, I could raise 60 Grand.
But if someone could design a Sterling Engine that could sit on top of a wood burning stove and provide sufficient power for a fridge and a freezer. That would be nice.
Isolation I think might be a problem, Communities will be vulnerable unless they have a sufficiently large population (and enough guns to defend themselves) However. if we site these 'pioneer Communities' close to 'viable' towns and lease some of the land to the local community as allotments then the 'people' can defend the land.
If anyone fancies buying some land close to Guisbrough on the edge of the North Yorks Moors, I could raise 60 Grand.
Or northern ireland? *stares around hopefully*I'd really like to live in a community, but are they all going to be in Scotland, Devon and Wales?
Plenty of guns around here..Communities will be vulnerable unless they have a sufficiently large population (and enough guns to defend themselves)
I don't have a spare ?5k at the moment, but if I did, I not sure I would have the courage to uproot away from all I know and love. I wish you all well, though.
I believe a typical route for people who want to build an intentional community and can raise a bit of cash is to buy land with an old ramshackle farmhouse on it and either renovate or rebuild or extend the existing buildings. The presence of a farmhouse makes getting planning permission much easier, because buildings already exist so there's no change of use involved.
I know a community near Carmarthen in Wales that went this route. I was very tempted to join them at one point but they had this policy of incoming-sharing which sounded like a recipe for disaster
I know a community near Carmarthen in Wales that went this route. I was very tempted to join them at one point but they had this policy of incoming-sharing which sounded like a recipe for disaster
Hi All.
Well, I think we all agree there's going to be a seismic change within the next few years. But how big that change will be is difficult to foresee. From my own readings and instincts I don't think we'll be seeing a swift descent into medieval existence. The powers that be are well aware of the impending issues. What they may have been caught out on is how soon it'll happen. Within the next five years is a sure bet. My best advice is to downsize, reduce your debt to something negligible, work locally and generally save a much as you can for the challenges to come. We're not going to one day wake up to mayhem. Society will change and adapt. Yes, it'll be good to grow your own veg etc, learn new skills. But
running to the hills" is not viable for most of us. Live close to town centers read conserve and prepare. And most of all insulate your home to the utmost and reduce your energy consumption to
as low as possible. Get a multi fuel stove to compliment winter heating cost and generally try and be realistic. We just have to adapt.
Rick. Worthing Sussex."
Well, I think we all agree there's going to be a seismic change within the next few years. But how big that change will be is difficult to foresee. From my own readings and instincts I don't think we'll be seeing a swift descent into medieval existence. The powers that be are well aware of the impending issues. What they may have been caught out on is how soon it'll happen. Within the next five years is a sure bet. My best advice is to downsize, reduce your debt to something negligible, work locally and generally save a much as you can for the challenges to come. We're not going to one day wake up to mayhem. Society will change and adapt. Yes, it'll be good to grow your own veg etc, learn new skills. But
running to the hills" is not viable for most of us. Live close to town centers read conserve and prepare. And most of all insulate your home to the utmost and reduce your energy consumption to
as low as possible. Get a multi fuel stove to compliment winter heating cost and generally try and be realistic. We just have to adapt.
Rick. Worthing Sussex."
This thread seems to have died a bit of a death. I must say that I'm still interested but I agree with Peaky that I think that you'll have problems getting everyone to high-tail it to the ends of the country. As mrkinnies (sp?) points out it takes a while to get planning permission and where are people going to live in the mean time? And in general a lot of work will have to be done (initially and on-going) to set things up even from the point of view of agriculture-type activities. Rather better to try to get interested people in an area to club together and buy some land (like a super-allotment I guess). It is more expensive in some areas of the country (and much scarcer which is more of a problem) but I would guess that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.Peaky wrote:I'd really like to live in a community but are they all going to be in Scotland Devon and Wales?
There are so many great people with these kind of views (community not necessarily PO - yet) living here in Brighton and I'd like to think it would be possible to create an intentional community round here? But is that crazy talk - are land prices round here so insane that there's no point even considering it?
-SNIP-
I imagine that like many of us I find myself contemplating a place I'd never imagined when I bought my house 3 years ago and envisioned being settled here rather than Wales. I would think that most of us are in large towns or cities - do we all intend to move to the above mentioned parts of the country or would anyone else like to stay roughly put and if so what kind of a different approach would that require?
Great to see this topic here - something that's going to be rising up the priority list as things start tightening.
Peter."
Buying a wedge of Devon or Scotland seems to me to be a bit utopian.
And what is wrong with a bit Utopian?
Actually, it depends what you mean. Building a perfect society wont work but a groups of communities networked together could. That, I think, is the way to go. Each community itself would be self sufficient in the sense that it produces its own food and energy and handles its own waist but they would also draw strength from the network. Each community could produce goods that are used in other communities in additions to there self sufficient needs. For example, one community could grow cotton that another uses to make into textiles that another makes clothes out of that are then distributed to a number of communities on an as and when needed basis.
There is actually the potential to maintain a hi-tech society with a high standard of living in a self surfactant way that is in balance with the ecosystem. Not utopia but something better than what we are doing now.
BTW, this only part of the plan
And what is wrong with a bit Utopian?
Actually, it depends what you mean. Building a perfect society wont work but a groups of communities networked together could. That, I think, is the way to go. Each community itself would be self sufficient in the sense that it produces its own food and energy and handles its own waist but they would also draw strength from the network. Each community could produce goods that are used in other communities in additions to there self sufficient needs. For example, one community could grow cotton that another uses to make into textiles that another makes clothes out of that are then distributed to a number of communities on an as and when needed basis.
There is actually the potential to maintain a hi-tech society with a high standard of living in a self surfactant way that is in balance with the ecosystem. Not utopia but something better than what we are doing now.
BTW, this only part of the plan
Last edited by PVPoster2 on 08 Jul 2005, 12:27, edited 1 time in total.
Agree completely!isenhand wrote:Building a perfect society wont work but a groups of communities networked together could.
Im tinkering quite a lot with various designs along these lines. I would like to add a couple of components to such a community network:
*A mutual-credit system as suggested by Edwin Riegel (found in theory at www.newapproachtofreedom.info and live at www.bartercard.com and www.ces.org.za).
*An incentive to replicate by help with funding the formation of new communities. A bit of virus that is. There are existing models for this.
*Mutual defense agreements. Just look how far the Swiss got with that! Love it or hate it but there will be people who will try to help themselves by taking from others.
Right now I'm most concerned with finding pivotal issues to keep such communities in as chaordic states as possible balancing just between chaos and order. Chaordic organisations are by far the most robust and adaptable which can be found and virtually impossible to conquer since there is no center to conquer!"
I'm finding it quite interesting that the sort of ideas being presented on this site for sustainable communities are so free from the usual utopian/marxist/anarchist dogmas that appear pretty much everywhere else that such things are discussed.MacG wrote: Right now I'm most concerned with finding pivotal issues to keep such communities in as chaordic states as possible balancing just between chaos and order. Chaordic organisations are by far the most robust and adaptable which can be found and virtually impossible to conquer since there is no center to conquer!
I suspect that a deep understanding of the need for (and power of) flexible sustainable systems - as exhibited by your use of the word 'chaordia' - comes as part of the package for those of us who naturally grasp the totality of the coming peak oil systemic failure. In other words we naturally 'get' that any system containing a rigid structure will be brittle and yet understand that without structure any endeavour will be liable to collapse."
I'm finding it quite interesting that the sort of ideas being presented on this site for sustainable communities are so free from the usual utopian/marxist/anarchist dogmas that appear pretty much everywhere else that such things are discussed.
Some people think of technocracy as utopian but I would never go that far as I would not consider a perfect society as ever being possible, just that we can think and organise ourselves to construct a better society that is in balance. Technocracy also has some over laps with Marxism but is far from Marxism as it takes a technological solution to a technological problem.
I suspect that a deep understanding of the need for (and power of) flexible sustainable systems
?balance? is a key word in technocracy.
A mutual-credit system as suggested by Edwin Riegel
I need to look into that in a bit more detail but for now I will just point out the use of energy as a replacement for money. This goes back to balancing the system and using energy as a measure as it is directly proportional to the output, where as money is not.
Im tinkering quite a lot with various designs along these lines.
These ideas have mostly been around for 70 years or more I think you would like Technospheretic. He does a lot of thinking a long theses lines too.
Some people think of technocracy as utopian but I would never go that far as I would not consider a perfect society as ever being possible, just that we can think and organise ourselves to construct a better society that is in balance. Technocracy also has some over laps with Marxism but is far from Marxism as it takes a technological solution to a technological problem.
I suspect that a deep understanding of the need for (and power of) flexible sustainable systems
?balance? is a key word in technocracy.A mutual-credit system as suggested by Edwin Riegel
I need to look into that in a bit more detail but for now I will just point out the use of energy as a replacement for money. This goes back to balancing the system and using energy as a measure as it is directly proportional to the output, where as money is not.
Im tinkering quite a lot with various designs along these lines.
These ideas have mostly been around for 70 years or more
I think you would like Technospheretic. He does a lot of thinking a long theses lines too.
I agree mostly. Just one point, replacing money in such a system is a must. What you replace it with depends on your objective but if you wish to have a system that is in balance you have to have a replacement for money that measures what your are actually doing. The use of energy credits will do that.
Such a network, I think, has the possibility of surviving a collapse in the econ but also of forming a foundation for a society that would still have a high standard of living.
<< Im tinkering quite a lot with various designs along these lines.>>
So have I
The basic idea I have in my head is a network of self-sufficient communities that support each other (defence, technology, etc). I think the support will end up with a hierarch of organisations that have the roll of facilitators to aid communities to work together and to aid in moving the whole network towards a common goal of a high standard of living that is in balance with the ecology.
The question I have is; would such a system work? I think it could but it needs to be worked out in more detail and we need so empirical evidence that will support the idea. So sort of research project.
Now all we need to do is hammer out the ideas. Maybe we should form an organisation to do this? Some of it could come under NET but it should really be separate from NET as this is not really technocracy itself but could be seen as a path to technocracy.
Such a network, I think, has the possibility of surviving a collapse in the econ but also of forming a foundation for a society that would still have a high standard of living.
<< Im tinkering quite a lot with various designs along these lines.>>
So have I
The basic idea I have in my head is a network of self-sufficient communities that support each other (defence, technology, etc). I think the support will end up with a hierarch of organisations that have the roll of facilitators to aid communities to work together and to aid in moving the whole network towards a common goal of a high standard of living that is in balance with the ecology.
The question I have is; would such a system work? I think it could but it needs to be worked out in more detail and we need so empirical evidence that will support the idea. So sort of research project.
Now all we need to do is hammer out the ideas. Maybe we should form an organisation to do this? Some of it could come under NET but it should really be separate from NET as this is not really technocracy itself but could be seen as a path to technocracy.
The only future we have is the one we make!
Technocracy:
http://en.technocracynet.eu
http://www.lulu.com/technocracy
http://www.technocracy.tk/
Technocracy:
http://en.technocracynet.eu
http://www.lulu.com/technocracy
http://www.technocracy.tk/
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Blue Peter
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- Location: Milton Keynes
