Ideas for one last big project

[Jibberjabber]

Firstly, thank you all for your thoughts and hard facts about the unfolding crisis that seems to have a very firm grip of every aspect of life.
I have come to the knowledge about PO frigtenly late and like many of the unwashed masses was more concerned about climate change.
I couldn't find a thread for quiet what i wanted to say, please move if appropriate.
My thinking is that most of TPTB must have some good info about what is coming, and they all wan't to sound like they are doing whatever it takes to keep the status quo. That being what us"consumers" want more than anything. But they must know that there is no time and that they are all fighting over the same finite resources to build the renewables. And that even a glimpse at most of the energy returns would indicate that none can be thought of as anything but a temporary slowing mechanism.
We don't have long and fighting PO is pointless.
But the Government and/or the people could do something now to make the post PO world just that little bit less terifying.
Now i'm so scientist, but if there are some here i would love to hear your opinion, and maybe you could provide some figures if you like it
[/b]Paint all roofs and anything else we can white.
It can be started imediately, by all of us. If somehow the government could be pursuaded of it's merits, it could have a long term effect on the timing of climate change for us here in the U.K.
I might just buy us a year or two of delays and maybe only by one degree, but that might be the differece between a PO survivor achieving self sufficiency or not.
Nationalize the paint industry, make just white and distribute it round the country whilst we still can. We also have a handy 600,000 people working in housing who will not have a job within the next few weeks or months.
We have the technology, man power and if we act first then we could get something done before it's to late.
And the government wouldn't even have to admit PO, it coul just say it's getting ready for climate change. The effects that the polar icecaps have on our temperature is now widely known and i think the people might go for this.
I know it's a one time shot, nobody would be around to repaint but if some of us survive, the woods might be just that little bit more comfortable.

[clv101]

Welcome to Powerswitch. I'm not sure painting things white is a very good idea though. Are you suggesting the the increased reflection from white surfaces will help to mitigate the warming due to increased green house gas concentrations?

I don't buy it - there are a hundred and one better things we could be doing to partially mitigate and adapt to climate change.
Here's the IPCC's Working Group III report on "Mitigation of Climate Change":
http://www.ipcc.ch/ipccreports/ar4-wg3.htm

I think the only mention of building albedo shift comes on page 397:

Increasing the solar reflectivity of roofs and horizontal or
near-horizontal surfaces around buildings and planting shade
trees can yield dramatic energy savings. The benefits of trees
arise both from direct shading and from cooling the ambient air.
Rosenfeld et al. (1998) computed that a very large-scale, citywide
program of increasing roof and road albedo and planting
trees in Los Angeles could yield a total savings in residential
cooling energy of 50–60%, with a 24–33% reduction in peak
air conditioning loads.

This is about building heating/cooling requirements though, and not really applicable to the UK.

I don't think it's very useful to think of 'TPTB' as all that different, more informed, more empowered than anyone else. They are just regular people there's the same amount of peak oil dismissal (and acceptance) in Westminster as there is on a street in Leeds.

[emordnilap]

'twould have to be lime wash.

Peak titanium anyone?

[energy-village]

Paint all roofs and anything else we can white.

It can be started imediately, by all of us. If somehow the government could be pursuaded of it's merits, it could have a long term effect on the timing of climate change for us here in the U.K.

Welcome Jibberjabber. Before explaining its merits to the government would you please explain them to us. Cheers.

[adam2]

The painting white of roofs etc. would ever so slightly reduce global warming since more heat and light would be reflected back into space, rather than raising temperatures on earth.

The benefit would be minute though, much of the reflected infra red radiation would be trapped in the atmosphere.
Many roofs are pitched and covered with slates, tiles or shingles and can not be readily painted white.
And anyway roofs and similar structures cover only a minute % of the earths surface area.
In hot climates many roofs are already painted white, in order to reduce interior temperatures.

The money would be better spent on renewable energy generation, solar thermal, PV, wind, hydro, and biomass.
Or on energy saving, low energy lamps, more efficient vehicles, insulating buildings etc.

In the long term though I believe that runaway* global warming is unavoidable.
Ultimatly all recoverable fossil fuels are going to be burnt, with disasterous results for the climate.
Does anyone realy believe that renewable energy sources, and energy conservation, will result in any recoverable oil, gas or coal being left in the ground? I dont !

The present high price of fuel will result in more oil being extracted and burnt not less.
Consider how much oil was uneconomic to extract at $50 but is viable at $100. And how much more will be viable to extract when the price reaches $200.

*At present the main driver of GW is believed to be carbon dioxide from the burning of fossil fuels. However as GW accelerates, more ice/snow will melt thus exposing the dark soil or sea water below, which will absorb more heat. Also as the Arctic permafrost/tundra melts, it will either rot, releasing methane which is a potent greenhouse gas, or it will dry out and catch fire, releasing even more carbon dioxide.

[Jibberjabber]

The reason i posted was to get my opinions heard by someone who understands the problem, nobody in the "real world " gets it. And i can see your point's about painting everything white. Far from the ideal solution.
However i think my main reason for coming up with it was the very short lead time.
We have peak EVERYTHING.
And the global financial systems are based on a premise that doesn't work anymore.
I can't see governments, or the manufacturing companies who make the renewable's functioning for long enough to contribute.
If we can't come up with anything better than what they are doing for the short term then it's time to fend for ourselves.
Any suggestions for best last gasp effort for if we only have 18 months of functioning government left???
I am hoping the dangers ahead are getting everybodies synapses firing like never before

[emordnilap]

In the long term though I believe that runaway* global warming is unavoidable.
Ultimatly all recoverable fossil fuels are going to be burnt, with disasterous results for the climate.
Does anyone realy believe that renewable energy sources, and energy conservation, will result in any recoverable oil, gas or coal being left in the ground? I dont !

All true.

The present high price of fuel will result in more oil being extracted and burnt not less.
Consider how much oil was uneconomic to extract at $50 but is viable at $100. And how much more will be viable to extract when the price reaches $200.

Again true. Coal will be the same.

The fact that this carbon has been sequestered underground is directly linked to the fact that life exists on this planet.

[RenewableCandy]

Apparently they spray a lot of false snow on the Alps, Aviemore and suchlike places when there's none of the real stuff for ski-ing on. Assuming that the false snow is white, biodegradeable and easy to make...

But I think my favourite Geo-engineering project (i.e. the only one I think stands a prayer) is Prof Salter's wind-powered sea-spray kit.

[clv101]

Ultimatly all recoverable fossil fuels are going to be burnt, with disasterous results for the climate.
Does anyone realy believe that renewable energy sources, and energy conservation, will result in any recoverable oil, gas or coal being left in the ground? I dont !

Well, the price difference between renewables and fossil fuels is rapidly closing. I'm an engineer involved in a project installing tens of millions of euros worth of PV in Africa for one reason and one reason only - it's the cheapest.

Another doubling or two in fossil fuel prices, continued renewable price erosion and renewables will be dramatically the cheapest. We also know there is a massive potential source of renewables.

So yeah, I think some fossil fuel's could be left in the ground - for purely economic reasons.

[kenneal - lagger]

JJ is right about the government not getting it. DBERR civil servants are still working on oil prices coming down below $100/bbl in the near future: hence recommending a new runway at Heathrow and other idiocies.

They are worried about where our home heating is going to come from but think that our houses are well insulated! They are supporting the building of huge new power stations when small local power generators with CHP would solve both the electricity problem and the home heating problem in one hit.

The problem is that our economy is run by economists not engineers. Anyone who is educated into thinking that we can have constant growth in a finite environment must have their own problems to start with, before sorting out ours as well.

[adam2]

Apparently they spray a lot of false snow on the Alps, Aviemore and suchlike places when there's none of the real stuff for ski-ing on. Assuming that the false snow is white, biodegradeable and easy to make...].

AFAIK the false snow*, is real frozen water but produced by man not nature. If the temperature is low enough, artificial snow may be produced by powerful fans and water jets, the water droplets freezing in flight.
At higher temperatures, cooling must also be provided, often by liquid air, the energy and financial costs are substantial.

*In ski resorts that is, other types of artifcial snow exist for stage use, TV special effects etc. These are not generaly frozen water.

[dudley]

As regards the original idea, wouldn't all the paint just flake off in 30 or 40 years. Wouldn't be any help then and just add to pollution. Maybe you could put white plastic sheeting on everything.

[RenewableCandy]

Maybe you could put white plastic sheeting on everything.

Bleached-in-the-sun hemp sheeting?

[dudley]

It looks like Jibberjabber was on to something!

http://www.energy.ca.gov/2008publicatio ... 08-022.PDF

[Jibberjabber]

Nice find Dudley.

The numbers look pretty impressive.

I first heard about it in an article about the future. It had very, very full cities that were all white. It looked wonderfull. It was also based on free endless energy for everyone. Anybody got any sure fire ideas that will sort the last bit?? I can bring some paint and together we could rule the world.