PowerSwitch

(This should be in the 'solar' topic but I feel that it's important to raise the profile of my comments)

My cheap panels from Maplin have arrived.

I had expected a small box ... but the 60 watt panel came in a large package weighing 35kg!

I have opened one of the 4.8 watt 'small' panels ... even this is LARGE and HEAVY!

I haven't done the calculations but I can't see any way that all the energy embedded in making and transporting these monstrous things can be recovered any time soon.

If these are typical PV technology, I suspect a 2000 watt set up would collapse my roof!

There is NO WAY I am buying any more solar in this format unless I simply can't find an alternative.

No wonder wind power appeals to many.

Hi Vortex,

I think the panels you have bought are very similar to the individual 12W ones I got from Maplin.

As they are amorphous panels they are generally a lot bigger than their monocrystalline counterparts.

My panels haven't arrived yet, (tomorrow, hopefully), but the spec says:

70 watts - (3.5 anp in reality, so about 40 watts)

3.5mm thick x 700mm wide x 800mm long

3.5 Kg.

Cost me ?425.00 each - but bulk order - expect a little more if one's and two's.

Will post to confirm as soon as I have them.

They have used a ton of oil & energy to get made ... and then they are shipped across from China ... and packed for retail ... and shipped across the UK ... and then use batteries and wiring etc than I add on ....

all for 4.8 watts (or 60 watts) ...

Madness.

I suspect they would have to last many decades to pay for themselves.

Mitch wrote:My panels haven't arrived yet, (tomorrow, hopefully), but the spec says:

70 watts - (3.5 anp in reality, so about 40 watts)

3.5mm thick x 700mm wide x 800mm long

3.5 Kg.

Cost me ?425.00 each - but bulk order - expect a little more if one's and two's.

Will post to confirm as soon as I have them.

Can your boat support this lot?

Solar cells don't work well under water.

If you had bought your system as 60 watt units from Maplin the shipping weight would be around 875 kg .... nearly one tonne!

You could also build a fair sized hut from the stacked boxes!

Isn't it the case that the high level of redundancy in PV modules in the UK climate makes them less viable? The iridescence (is that the right word?) is lower in the UK than warmer climates..?

contadino wrote: iridescence (is that the right word?)

That's what make butterflies and starlings pretty.
irradiance?

contadino wrote:Isn't it the case that the high level of redundancy in PV modules in the UK climate makes them less viable? The iridescence (is that the right word?) is lower in the UK than warmer climates..?

Insolation is (I think) the word you're looking for. Iridescence is an optical effect of certain repeating nano structures, seen in oil on water, sea shells, insect wings, CDs

Vortex wrote:I haven't done the calculations but I can't see any way that all the energy embedded in making and transporting these monstrous things can be recovered any time soon.

I did some math on solar PV some 7-8 years ago, and arrived at the conclusion that they did NOT represent any kind of "alternative" energy.

Solar PV are completely fossil energy and don't recover the embedded energy during their lifetimes.

Solar PV can be a handy way to get electricity in off-grid locations where it's cheaper than pulling a copper wire tens of kilometers. They could indeed be really smart investments because they will become more expensive when oil gets more expensive. If you buy solar PV panels today, you could enjoy electric light 20 years from now at today's cost.

MacG wrote:

Vortex wrote:I haven't done the calculations but I can't see any way that all the energy embedded in making and transporting these monstrous things can be recovered any time soon.

I did some math on solar PV some 7-8 years ago, and arrived at the conclusion that they did NOT represent any kind of "alternative" energy.

Solar PV are completely fossil energy and don't recover the embedded energy during their lifetimes.

Solar PV can be a handy way to get electricity in off-grid locations where it's cheaper than pulling a copper wire tens of kilometers. They could indeed be really smart investments because they will become more expensive when oil gets more expensive. If you buy solar PV panels today, you could enjoy electric light 20 years from now at today's cost.

EXACTLY - which means they have ADDED VALUE . . . the convenience of having electricity as opposed to not having it, and security from energy price rises.

They will eventually recover their embedded energy in any case, if undamaged - the guarantee is normally 25 years but I would have thought they would last decades if looked after, albeit not at their initial power rating.

Vortex wrote:They have used a ton of oil & energy to get made ... and then they are shipped across from China ... and packed for retail ... and shipped across the UK ... and then use batteries and wiring etc than I add on ....

all for 4.8 watts (or 60 watts) ...

Madness.

I suspect they would have to last many decades to pay for themselves.

Shipped across China? LOL!

Energy is put in to make silicon metal, which is shipped to polysilicon manufacturers to make polySi. That ships to Si wafer makers (mainly Japan), who process single crystal silicon. The scrap ships to China, usually airfreight due to high demand, and used in the manufacture of cells. The cells are then shipped again to the markets worldwide, where someone buys them, thinking they're being "green".

There's potential to be more energy positive, but the current model is far from a good EROEI.

Vortex wrote: If these are typical PV technology, I suspect a 2000 watt set up would collapse my roof!

There is NO WAY I am buying any more solar in this format unless I simply can't find an alternative.

Flexible thin film PV which comes in a roll is in the pipeline. Just give it a few years to ramp up. Conversion efficieny is also slowly ramping up. When I first has a PV panel in my mitt, (a long time ago!) it was about 3% Now the commercially available state of the art is about 20% . expect better in years to come.

Sustainable? Copper is probable the limiting resource.

Andy Hunt wrote:...EXACTLY - which means they have ADDED VALUE . . . the convenience of having electricity as opposed to not having it, and security from energy price rises.

They will eventually recover their embedded energy in any case, if undamaged - the guarantee is normally 25 years but I would have thought they would last decades if looked after, albeit not at their initial power rating.

That's exactly my reason for buying into them. It's difficult to justify on a 'being green' level but by buying some now cheaply hopefully they will prove their worth in the years to come.

One thing that does worry me is having a huge setup on the roof of my house would act as a beacon to all the thieving gits out there so my system will be as portable as possible i.e. I can put it out in the garden during the day and indoors at night.

Mitch wrote:70 watts - (3.5 anp in reality, so about 40 watts)

Cost me ?425.00 each - but bulk order - expect a little more if one's and two's.

Thats still not that good a deal.

I've got loads of 180w Sharp panels (made in Wales) at ?500 plus vat if you want to pm me.

My company is due to go into its commercial launch later this month.

Customers will be able to switch from their current supplier to Stortford Green. We will then survey their home to see if its suitable for microgenation technologies.

If it is, we will fund the installation and it will all be paid for via the energy bill.

We believe we are the first full renewable energy services company (ESCo) in the UK.

We only install financially viable technologies. That's because unless it pays for its self we go bust

Oh and one more thing, the energy you use over the amount you generate also comes from renewable sources.

Regards


Ian G
www.StortfordGreen.com

contadino wrote:Isn't it the case that the high level of redundancy in PV modules in the UK climate makes them less viable? The iridescence (is that the right word?) is lower in the UK than warmer climates..?

Southern UK has the same levels as Germany where they have 300,000 installations compared to our 1,500.

Has more to do with government policy, than light levels.