PowerSwitch

I don't think that 1200 workers have the right to blackmail & possibly cripple a whole nation.

At what point should the government step in?

Or, putting it another way,

I don't think that 1 private equity company has the right to blackmail & possibly cripple a whole nation.

At what point should the government step in?

Vortex wrote:I don't think that 1200 workers have the right to blackmail & possibly cripple a whole nation.

At what point should the government step in?

Uhu..? Do you think you have some special "rights" to the stuff they produce? Have you completely skipped the idea of "free markets"? If they don't want to sell the stuff because of some internal affair with the people they hired, it's their choice I guess. It's a free market - buy from someone else.

Seriously, the entire concept of "the free market" is pretty stupid when it comes to the necessities of life. This one does not work either: "Food is expensive so I skip buying it until they lower their prices".

Do you think you have some special "rights" to the stuff they produce?

No.

I do however have MAJOR problems with people who abuse positions of power for their own ends.

One person : one vote.

Not one person : 50000 votes because he/she has the power to turn the lights off.

Vortex, is it not time you asked yourself why the Govt. has not stepped in yet? Think about it!

Vortex wrote:

Do you think you have some special "rights" to the stuff they produce?

No.

I do however have MAJOR problems with people who abuse positions of power for their own ends.

One person : one vote.

Not one person : 50000 votes because he/she has the power to turn the lights off.

Eh.. Do you mean that you are in some way surprised?

I do however have MAJOR problems with people who abuse positions of power for their own ends.

Like the few who bought Grangemouth with other people's money, you mean?

I do however have MAJOR problems with people who abuse positions of power for their own ends.
One person : one vote.

Agreed. But it has been working this way for a while now, with no visible change.

I am a scientist. I am nearly 40, have never had a contract longer than 3 years in my working life, have more than half a decade's-worth of post-school education and only in the last few years have I begun to feel "comfortable" financially. I'm not whinging-this is how it is in my world. Scientists don't go on strike though because it takes a quarter of a century before anyone realises they need 'em. I think the workers of Grangemouth are using the leverage they have in a justifiable cause. So power to their elbow. If you don't like it, in a free society you have the alternatives of taking the bus or train, walking or cycling to work. Get used used to it.

s.

OK, so I am supposed to be perfectly happy when anyone with 'leverage' and a 'valid cause' turn outs the lights, stops the trains running, cuts of the water supplies, closes down the hospitals etc?

There are probably MANY small groups who could cripple the country in pursuit of a pay rise etc.

If we recognise the right of these groups to strike at will then the country will grind to a halt - and stay that way. Shades of the 1970s.

Is that what you REALLY want?

In a vibrant economy everyone does well and so strikes etc are not needed - but in a downturn some will try to maintain their standard of living at the expense of others.

They may have the power to do this.
It may be a problem as old as time.
However it is not fair on the bulk of the population who have no special 'leverage'.

I see a private company pretty much owned by one person, trying to squeeze its workers to make sure the fat cats and investors can stay rich.

I say go for it, strike, make the corporation pay! And along the way they can educate the country that energy is the most important industry for maintaining civilisation.

It is the 70?s back again, but this time the government will not be able to ?destroy? the protagonists.

The last time a group of workers had this power was with the miners in the 70?s (beer and sandwiches at no 10) Maggie then systematically destroyed their industry so they could never wield this power again.
I do not think the government will be so quick to destroy this group of workers power, unless they want to completely cripple the country.

Good luck to the Scots to protect their pensions, Ineous is quite a bullying company. I have done some work for them in Cheshire a few years back and the feeling of the workers when ineous took over from ICI was not good. A great foreboding fell over the plant which as it turned out was justified.

There environmental credentials are not much better and they have a talent for screwing money out of the taxpayer via dopey ministers to do what every other business in the UK has to do anyway.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2002 ... alsciences

But these short term JIT breakdowns which will become far mare regular will not affect us, because we on this forum are ready. If we are not, what have we been doing for the last 18 months?

This is all rather disturbing.

I have a dark suspicion that some people positively welcome the disruption that Peak Oil might bring ...

The evil bankers and the naughty rich need to be PUNISHED for their crimes and Peak Oil is the tool which will deliver this punishment.

Sorry team - the rich and big business and the successful will ALWAYS be with us, in some guise or other.

mikepeplar wrote: see a private company pretty much owned by one person, trying to squeeze its workers to make sure the fat cats and investors can stay rich.

I say go for it, strike, make the corporation pay! And along the way they can educate the country that energy is the most important industry for maintaining civilisation.

Agree with that sentiment.

If you've prepared for PO then it might be worthwhile treating it as a test to see what areas you need to reduce your oil reliance on before TSHTF.
[/quote]

Vortex wrote:This is all rather disturbing.

I have a dark suspicion that some people positively welcome the disruption that Peak Oil might bring ...

The evil bankers and the naughty rich need to be PUNISHED for their crimes and Peak Oil is the tool which will deliver this punishment.

Sorry team - the rich and big business and the successful will ALWAYS be with us, in some guise or other.

I think very few people WANT disruption for disruption's sake but as Mike P says, it will be a good thing if it wakes up the deluded, particularly those in BERR and elsewhere in government who need to shift from the "free markets are everything" paradigm to an "energy is everything" (more or less) paradigm.

I agree too that, the owners are the real "baddies" in this situation. The workers are just trying to protect their current position. Many people would and will do the same.

The workers are just trying to protect their current position.

We are NOT talking about exploited over-worked NHS nurses here.

The Grangemouth workers are on ?50k - ?60k with a final pension scheme ... which is NON-CONTRIBUTORY. A jammy deal if you can get it!

They are now being asked to contribute 6% in order to ensure the viability of their pension fund - which I feel is a fair request is these dark times. They don't want to risk another Equitable Life!

Almost every pension scheme is in trouble so this doesn't seem to a special case.

However putting the above aside, they are also insisting that this excellent pension scheme is still offered to NEW staff.

Now this part is a bit naughty - they clearly want to ensure that their CHILDREN get jammy jobs at the plant too!

The latter demand is clearly out of line - workers have no right to tell their employers how to hire staff, who to hire or what financial package should be offered.

That's not capitalism, socialism, communism or fascism .. it's called nepotism.

Shortages are going to become more common from now on. This is just a taste of things to come. I personally support the right of workers to squeeze as much money out of their employers as possible. Of course it would be nice if they would share the wealth, but as we're stuck with capitalism at the moment I say good on them.

Us peak oilers should, as someone pointed out, be viewing this with interest to see how it affects us. If it affects us at all.

Today I cycled to the community allotment with my friend riding a bike I found in a skip last month. Our operations will not be directly affected by even a severe shortage. If anything it would make the bike ride safer if there were less cars on the road.

Economic inactivity isn't entirely bad

Anyway, I would imagine that motorists will be the main group affected, and probably not so much in the south where I am? I shall go see if the prices at the garage have shifted significantly (they usually have, mind )