PowerSwitch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBJfnw5ZmJA

Don't be put off by the title of this video. Crossan is one of the leading scholars of the historical Jesus, and his intended audience is Christian, but his interpretation of Christianity is something that most Christians would find absolutely shocking. If you don't believe me, start watching from 9.00 (section called evolutionary sanctions).

What he is saying is that when Paul spoke of the resurrection of Jesus, he did not mean Jesus had been brought back to life in a one-off miracle to prove he was the Son of God. He was saying that Jesus had come to end the evil world humans had made, starting at the point we left our evolutionary home in Africa circa 70K years ago and we've been heading towards ecological imbalance, on an evolutionary timescale, ever since. Following the metaphor, he's saying that Paul believed that Jesus represented a turning point in history -- that his "resurrection" was the beginning of the end of that process of ecological imbalance, and that now our species has a choice between extinction or "resurrection". So by "resurrection" he means figuring out how to build an ecologically sustainable human world**. He means humans surviving collapse. He's talking about the resurrection of humanity -- or of human civilisation -- except in a sustainable form.**

I find these ideas absolutely fascinating, not least because Crossan's idea of who Jesus actually was -- what he was actually trying to do in Galilee in the 20s CE and why the Roman authorities ended up killing him -- is the most convincing I have ever come across: J.D. Crossan 2000 UNI lecture on the historical Jesus - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2m7I4WEoso. Again, this lecture has nothing (or very little) to do with Christianity as most modern day Christians understand it. It's about the history beneath the very confused mythology.

It is interesting because I like to wonder how the world might change if more Christians actually understood the origins of their own religion, and how it is related to what is happening in the world today. Christians are severely under-represented in online spaces related to collapse. Their simplistic understanding of their own religion appears to have made it difficult for them to see the world like the majority here see it. I think that is partly because it leads them to be unscientific, but also because they tend to associate collapse with the end times in the simplistic sense that it suggests Jesus might be coming back to save us some time soon. Which isn't very helpful.

Anyway...if anybody is interested in exploring these ideas I'd be fascinated to see where the discussion goes.

I'll watch the videos and get back to you

Fair play you dig up some fascinating stuff! I will add this to my watch list after I finish "The Santiago Boys".

Crossan is a very common surname in this part of the world.

UndercoverElephant wrote: ↑21 Jul 2023, 23:43
I find these ideas absolutely fascinating, not least because Crossan's idea of who Jesus actually was -- what he was actually trying to do in Galilee in the 20s CE and why the Roman authorities ended up killing him -- is the most convincing I have ever come across: J.D. Crossan 2000 UNI lecture on the historical Jesus - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2m7I4WEoso. Again, this lecture has nothing (or very little) to do with Christianity as most modern day Christians understand it. It's about the history beneath the very confused mythology.

I watched this video about the historical Jesus. It’s actually a very normal sort of lecture that is really very much at the heart of modern theological scholarship that is taught in universities. There’s absolutely nothing in it that I’d even come close to disagreeing with, and I preach or teach this kind of thing every Sunday. Like you, I do find it absolutely fascinating, because far from taking away from the Christian faith, I think this sort of theology (which I’d characterise as ‘modern liberal theology’) allows people to have a realistic faith that can cope with the complexities of real history, rather than relying on clinging to a simplistic mythology that needs constant defending and shoring up with ever more tenuous justifications.

I thought Crossan’s idea of ‘resurrection’ as a signpost towards the radical new communities that were sharing everything with each other and practising nonviolence - the arrival of God’s kingdom - was excellent. But most of his ideas in this video are so ‘normal’ to me that I can hardly imagine thinking about them another way.

The only statement he made that I haven’t seen evidence for was the idea that Jesus started off assuming God was an avenging God but then changed his mind to see God as a nonviolent God when God didn’t avenge John the Baptist’s death. The evidence for a change of heart in Jesus’ understanding of God’s character isn’t immediately apparent to me, but then I’m not a doctor of theology, let alone a professor.

I’m looking forward to watching the other video now. Thanks for posting them.

RevdTess wrote: ↑22 Jul 2023, 18:49 There’s absolutely nothing in it that I’d even come close to disagreeing with, and I preach or teach this kind of thing every Sunday.

I wasn't expecting you to say that, for sure. Your church can't be much like the one I was dragged to every Sunday as a child.

Like you, I do find it absolutely fascinating, because far from taking away from the Christian faith, I think this sort of theology (which I’d characterise as ‘modern liberal theology’) allows people to have a realistic faith that can cope with the complexities of real history, rather than relying on clinging to a simplistic mythology that needs constant defending and shoring up with ever more tenuous justifications.

I agree, but can't seem to find many Christians who agree with you. But then maybe that is a reflection of the people I interact with.

UndercoverElephant wrote: ↑22 Jul 2023, 20:43 I wasn't expecting you to say that, for sure. Your church can't be much like the one I was dragged to every Sunday as a child.
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I agree, but can't seem to find many Christians who agree with you. But then maybe that is a reflection of the people I interact with.

If your experience of church/Christians is mainly Conservative Evangelical or Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, then for sure you're very likely to encounter church preaching/teaching that is very dogmatic and likely to consider the likes of Crossan as deeply heretical. But I was taught my theology by people like Crossan, so it all feels very normal and familiar to me. From my perspective, I exist in a bubble of people who do theology as I do, but I recognise that the large majority of Christian churches are much more interested in the 'Christ of Faith' than the 'Historical Jesus'. I personally find the latter far more compelling. My congregations, I suspect, do not really understand the difference.

70k years ago was when Homo Sapiens successfully invaded Eurasia. There was actually an earlier attempt at invasion about 125k years ago as signs of Homo Sapiens have been found in Greece. Somehow either due to Neanderthal resistance or some climatic event the earlier invasion was unsuccessful.

I think there was also a volcanic eruption (Toba in Indonesia) around 70k years ago too. Not sure if this precipitated the Homo Sapiens migration (invasion if you prefer) or happened after it, creating a genetic bottleneck.

Can't comment on the religious stuff but he's a captivating speaker. I am most probably on the Highway to Hell like every heavy metal fan if all what was written in the Bible comes to pass.