It's coming.
Moderator: Peak Moderation
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AutomaticEarth
- Posts: 823
- Joined: 08 Nov 2010, 00:09
Excellent post.
Economy vs ecology. The company I work for is already pushing this. We have an office, but of you want to come into it they do not pay for the fuel expenses. Ie you work at home.
Physical goods vs informational goods - physical goods consume a lot more energy than info goods.
Everything is falling in price - physical vs information. No wonder everything is dropping in price hence deflation .
Robotisation means the loss of jobs. The politicians are preaching a model that is now dead.
Economy vs ecology. The company I work for is already pushing this. We have an office, but of you want to come into it they do not pay for the fuel expenses. Ie you work at home.
Physical goods vs informational goods - physical goods consume a lot more energy than info goods.
Everything is falling in price - physical vs information. No wonder everything is dropping in price hence deflation .
Robotisation means the loss of jobs. The politicians are preaching a model that is now dead.
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AutomaticEarth
- Posts: 823
- Joined: 08 Nov 2010, 00:09
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Little John
In a way, one really could apply an extremely traditional Marxist analysis to this in that one of the central tenets of Marxism is that capitalism has contained within it the seeds of its own destruction born of technological innovation. That is to say, the goal of any capitalist is to maximise profits and minimise costs. This inevitably involves technological innovation. Given that the biggest cost always eventually ends up being labour, any technological innovation that pushes labour further out of the equation is automatically jumped on. Thus, we eventually end up with the paradox of all the workers being laid off, in turn leaving no-one to buy the products.
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Little John
Oh no, I completely agree about that. That just makes matters even worse for capital and for labour. Much worse. It's yet another example of tech innovation sowing paradoxes at the heart of capitalism.Mr. Fox wrote:Hmmm... as 'informational goods' are not subject to entropy, did they get to meet 'money' on the same terms for a change?
Wake me up when I can torrent my breakfast.
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emordnilap
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To veer off a degree or two, we in Ireland are told that Christmas 2014 was 'about the same' as 2013 in retail terms - but I'd be interested to know if more actual goods were shifted, as everything these days seems cheap as chips.
Could it be a tiny part of the picture Mason is talking about: actual goods at a nadir of their monetary value, whereas informational goods (the truth, for example) cost money and much more.
Good speaker, by the way, with some fascinating ideas.
Could it be a tiny part of the picture Mason is talking about: actual goods at a nadir of their monetary value, whereas informational goods (the truth, for example) cost money and much more.
Good speaker, by the way, with some fascinating ideas.
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
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emordnilap
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I've just started reading The Establishment And How They Get Away With It by Owen Jones and that's a fascinating read too...it's making me squirm.
There's a wealth of books, articles, speakers, documentaries on 'this side' of the social debate, all of which are (I hope) forming part of what happens next.
Change is coming? Well, yes.
There's a wealth of books, articles, speakers, documentaries on 'this side' of the social debate, all of which are (I hope) forming part of what happens next.
Change is coming? Well, yes.
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
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emordnilap
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On the same page as Steve's link, I clicked on Mark Stevenson's talk at that same FutureFest.
He does ask some highly thought-provoking questions.
He does ask some highly thought-provoking questions.
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
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emordnilap
- Posts: 14815
- Joined: 05 Sep 2007, 16:36
- Location: here
I mentioned this trend a year ago: we're all the time doing people out of jobs, both wittingly and unwittingly. We're all "guilty"AutomaticEarth wrote:Sorry was meant to include that on Newsnight tonight, that they are talking about people are not needed to deliver stuff anymore - ie get drones to do it! DODGY TAX AVOIDERS is already talking about it.
Loss of jobs = depressed demand.
even though the real driver is the 1% wanting it all for themselves.I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
I think it's important to distinguish between "information goods" and informational products.
In the video, he was making the point that, increasingly, the value and uniqueness of goods is based on the information embedded within them. ( e.g. The formula to produce a miraculous drug from fairly mundane raw materials). Thus, anyone who has the information can replicate the goods. This wasn't always the case. To produce a car at affordable prices required investment in the right tooling, access to capital, routes to market, etc. Not everyone could do it. So, this change has contributed to a loss of jobs.
The rise of informational products ( e.g design, advertising, entertainment, etc) has not resulted in a loss of jobs. They have merely been off-shored to those parts of the World where labour is cheaper. But the system of production of material goods for consumption by others still has to exist in order for those infoermational products to have relevance and value)
In "The Third Wave", Alvin Toffler pointed to the rise of the "Prosumer" - someone who has a stake and participation in the creation of the product they consume. The rise of DIY stores, and the de-skilled products they sell, could be an example of this, allowing consumers to do the work previously provided by skilled tradespeople.
The rise of the prosumer is not a bad thing IMO, in that it builds resilience among members of the public and threatens hierarchy. It allows the possibility of disconnecting from the financial system and being more self-reliant and, perhaps, interdependent in one's local community.
But, and it's a big "but", for this to happen on a large scale, people would need to be released from the debt-servitude that many (most?) currently find themselves in. I doubt that that freedom is going to be handed to them on a plate.
In the video, he was making the point that, increasingly, the value and uniqueness of goods is based on the information embedded within them. ( e.g. The formula to produce a miraculous drug from fairly mundane raw materials). Thus, anyone who has the information can replicate the goods. This wasn't always the case. To produce a car at affordable prices required investment in the right tooling, access to capital, routes to market, etc. Not everyone could do it. So, this change has contributed to a loss of jobs.
The rise of informational products ( e.g design, advertising, entertainment, etc) has not resulted in a loss of jobs. They have merely been off-shored to those parts of the World where labour is cheaper. But the system of production of material goods for consumption by others still has to exist in order for those infoermational products to have relevance and value)
In "The Third Wave", Alvin Toffler pointed to the rise of the "Prosumer" - someone who has a stake and participation in the creation of the product they consume. The rise of DIY stores, and the de-skilled products they sell, could be an example of this, allowing consumers to do the work previously provided by skilled tradespeople.
The rise of the prosumer is not a bad thing IMO, in that it builds resilience among members of the public and threatens hierarchy. It allows the possibility of disconnecting from the financial system and being more self-reliant and, perhaps, interdependent in one's local community.
But, and it's a big "but", for this to happen on a large scale, people would need to be released from the debt-servitude that many (most?) currently find themselves in. I doubt that that freedom is going to be handed to them on a plate.
Engage in geo-engineering. Plant a tree today.
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AutomaticEarth
- Posts: 823
- Joined: 08 Nov 2010, 00:09
This article may interest some here...
It's IT-focused, but points to the rise automation now hitting the outsourcing industry.
[url]http://www.computerweekly.com/news/2240 ... rc=5347873
It's IT-focused, but points to the rise automation now hitting the outsourcing industry.
[url]http://www.computerweekly.com/news/2240 ... rc=5347873
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AutomaticEarth
- Posts: 823
- Joined: 08 Nov 2010, 00:09
Sorry left text off - browser trouble.
It-focused article, but seems indicate that the outsourcing industry is peaking.....
http://www.computerweekly.com/news/2240 ... rc=5347873
It-focused article, but seems indicate that the outsourcing industry is peaking.....
http://www.computerweekly.com/news/2240 ... rc=5347873