PowerSwitch

Some interesting bits in this article:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-27734930

It is difficult to recover the frame of mind in which the destruction of so many of the greatest animals on earth seemed like a good idea.

Is what the whalers of a few decades ago did so different to what we're doing today to many species and ecosystems. Did we ever lose that 'frame of mind'?

Everyone should be made to watch Earthlings. No avoiding any scenes allowed.

clv101 wrote:Some interesting bits in this article:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-27734930

It is difficult to recover the frame of mind in which the destruction of so many of the greatest animals on earth seemed like a good idea.

Is what the whalers of a few decades ago did so different to what we're doing today to many species and ecosystems. Did we ever lose that 'frame of mind'?

Nope. We've pretty much always been ecocidal, genocidal maniacs. Sure, hunter-gatherer tribes try to limit their own impact on their own territory, rather like modern-day people don't damage their own gardens, but somebody-else's territory? That was there to be pillaged without mercy. Even better, if it was apparently risk-free, beneficial or required for survival, just kill all the somebody-elses and take the territory.

I've just finished re-reading this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_Chimpanzee

emordnilap wrote:Everyone should be made to watch Earthlings. No avoiding any scenes allowed.

Thank you for your recommendation.

I have been a vegetarian for most of my adult life and have just watched this harrowing film with a heavy heart, a lump in my throat and a tear in my eye.

See: http://vimeo.com/1753971

You're right. Everyone should be made to watch this documentary.

Shortfall,

I'm not a vegetarian, but I do care about standards of animal welfare, and I absolutely detest the corporate/industrial complex for the way it abuses humans, animals and the entire planetary ecosystem, often for short-term gain, and the advertising/marketing business which hides what really happens and sells people things by making them want things they otherwise wouldn't want.

How do you feel about people "using" animals in the context of a small-holding or even old-style commercial farming, where the animals live outside and are slaughtered humanely? Is the real problem here the very fact that we are so dependent on animals per se, or "the system" that treats them as if they were non-conscious objects, and no different to any other part of the physical world that that system is chewing up and spitting out in 101 other ways?

UE

UndercoverElephant wrote:I absolutely detest the corporate/industrial complex for the way it abuses humans, animals and the entire planetary ecosystem

I'm particularly pleased you included that. It's one of the points I always make about industrial agro/pharming. In Earthlings, there are numerous examples of psychologically damaged humans used within the systems. And, of course, physical abuse of humans is so routine as to be almost invisible.

As to your second point, as a long-time vegetarian, then vegan, of course I can't agree that using animals is in any way necessary for a large proportion of humans. Most people find it difficult to understand that using animals is a choice.

That humans choose - or are forced - to live in parts of the world unsuitable for humans is a different issue.

emordnilap wrote:

UndercoverElephant wrote:I absolutely detest the corporate/industrial complex for the way it abuses humans, animals and the entire planetary ecosystem

I'm particularly pleased you included that. It's one of the points I always make about industrial agro/pharming. In Earthlings, there are numerous examples of psychologically damaged humans used within the systems. And, of course, physical abuse of humans is so routine as to be almost invisible.

As to your second point, as a long-time vegetarian, then vegan, of course I can't agree that using animals is in any way necessary for a large proportion of humans. Most people find it difficult to understand that using animals is a choice.

That humans choose - or are forced - to live in parts of the world unsuitable for humans is a different issue.

+1 - Wot he said.

Even vegans use animals -
earth worms, bees and other pollinators, etc. etc.

We are part of the ecosystem, and evolved as omnivores. We can chose not to eat part of the environment on grounds of food efficiency, habitat management or avoiding unnecessary pain and suffering, but pain and suffering are endemic in nature, and we cannot prevent it except by killing all life. Life forms are not easily classified. We are each containers for thousands of species of bacteria, mites, parasites etc. Some are harmful, some are benign, some we couldn't live without.

Just my (veggie) 2p

'Use' is a catch-all word, some meanings of which are out of context with "a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose".

But I'm glad you acknowledge it's all about choice. Or, as in Earthlings, choice fuelled by power.

clv101 wrote:

It is difficult to recover the frame of mind in which the destruction of so many of the greatest animals on earth seemed like a good idea.

Is what the whalers of a few decades ago did so different to what we're doing today to many species and ecosystems. Did we ever lose that 'frame of mind'?

Clearly the Japanese Prime Minister is still in the old-fashioned frame of mind.

http://action.sumofus.org/a/japan-whaling-industry/2/5/