What Happened to the Future? Energy per captia declining...

Forum for general discussion of Peak Oil / Oil depletion; also covering related subjects

Moderator: Peak Moderation

Post Reply
User avatar
Lord Beria3
Posts: 5066
Joined: 25 Feb 2009, 20:57
Location: Moscow Russia
Contact:

What Happened to the Future? Energy per captia declining...

Post by Lord Beria3 »

http://www.peakprosperity.com/blog/8359 ... ned-future
Improbably, the global economy has returned to growth over the past four years despite the ravages of a deflationary debt collapse, a punishing oil shock, ongoing constraint from debt and deleveraging, and stagnant global wages.

The proof of this growth comes from the best indicator of all: the growth of global energy consumption. Halted in 2009, as global trade collapsed from the second half of 2008 into the first half of the following year, the global demand for energy inputs quickly returned to its long-term trend in 2010, growing at approximately 2% per year.

Ecological economics holds that human economies are subordinate to the availability of natural capital. Technology therefore does not create natural resources, nor does human innovation. Instead, technology and innovation mediate the utilization of existing natural resources. In other words, an improvement in the technique of longwall coal mining (late 1700’s), or deepwater offshore oil drilling (late 1900’s), or horizontal natural gas fracking (early 2000’s) are all impressive. But these innovations only matter when the prize of dense energy deposits are actually on offer. No dense energy deposits = no value to innovation.

We are obligated, therefore, to acknowledge that when few natural resources exist or are too expensive to extract, tent very little economic activity is possible. Conversely, we are equally obligated to admit that when resources are available for consumption, then growth will likely result. And lo and behold, that is precisely the explanation for the world’s return to growth since the collapse of 2008: despite the punishing repricing of oil from $25 earlier in the decade to $100, there was enough energy from other sources to get the global economy back to some kind of growth.

Of course, this is not the smooth and well-lubricated growth many in the West had become accustomed to in the post-war era. The nature of today’s growth is highly asymmetric between East and West, and highly imbalanced between rich and poor. Today’s growth is also quite lumpy, or highly clustered, as certain domains and regions are benefiting while other populations are living in very stagnant conditions. We’ll get to these detail shortly.
This is a superb article, I strongly recommend reading the whole thing, which basically captures the new normal we have entered into the next few decades or so.

Yes, its a form of decline, yet not quite the doom and gloom predicted and the world will continue to see growth, even if it is not the quality growth we have seen in the past but a dirty, patchy and increasingly unequal growth which benefits the few not the many.
Peace always has been and always will be an intermittent flash of light in a dark history of warfare, violence, and destruction
Little John

Re: What Happened to the Future? Energy per captia declining

Post by Little John »

That does sound interesting LB. I'll take a read.
Little John

Post by Little John »

I've just has a quick scan-read of it and it completely ignores environmental issues which, if growth does carry on, albeit in an extremely patchy fashion, will become the primary drivers of collapse.

We either crash or we burn.
User avatar
emordnilap
Posts: 14815
Joined: 05 Sep 2007, 16:36
Location: here

Post by emordnilap »

It's a blip.

The very last thing a collapse of society is going to be is smooth.
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
User avatar
Lord Beria3
Posts: 5066
Joined: 25 Feb 2009, 20:57
Location: Moscow Russia
Contact:

Post by Lord Beria3 »

stevecook172001 wrote:I've just has a quick scan-read of it and it completely ignores environmental issues which, if growth does carry on, albeit in an extremely patchy fashion, will become the primary drivers of collapse.

We either crash or we burn.
Actually, that's on the second part which you need to be a paid member to read.

The summary talks about the environment and social issues which will overwhelm the system.
Peace always has been and always will be an intermittent flash of light in a dark history of warfare, violence, and destruction
Tarrel
Posts: 2466
Joined: 29 Nov 2011, 22:32
Location: Ross-shire, Scotland
Contact:

Post by Tarrel »

Interesting article but, I wonder, doesn't it contradict itself? Early on it points to the return of growth, as evidenced by increased global energy consumption. However, later on, it highlights the increasing investment required for extraction and states; "The net energy available to society is decreasing". Presumably, part of the increased global energy consumption is the "energy invested" in order to get the "energy returned". One could therefore be seeing an increase in global energy consumption with net energy available flatlining or declining. It would therefore be a big assumption to say that increasing energy consumption is proof of increased growth.

Part 2 looks like it might be worth a read. I'm guessing that it will point to further Capex being diverted to climate chaos mitigation and remedial work. This, together with that required for energy extraction, doesn't leave much left for infrastructure renewal or growth-stimulus. So, a slow decline is probably on the cards.

I'm not sure I agree with the points about the global just-in-time based economy becoming less oil dependent. Sure, oil may be becoming a smaller part of the overall energy mix but there are some components of the system (transportation being the obvious one) where we are still highly oil dependent.
Engage in geo-engineering. Plant a tree today.
User avatar
Ralph
Posts: 370
Joined: 02 Nov 2012, 22:25

Post by Ralph »

Tarrel wrote: Sure, oil may be becoming a smaller part of the overall energy mix but there are some components of the system (transportation being the obvious one) where we are still highly oil dependent.
sure…but peak oil certainly didn't cause the collapse envisioned, and it is obvious why. Peakers ignored basic economic theory to their detriment, but corporations certainly haven't…

Image

and neither have consumers who choose not to be tied to the liquid fuel bandwagon…which is so…neanderthal….



Image
ujoni08
Posts: 880
Joined: 03 Oct 2009, 19:23
Location: Stroud Gloucestershire

Post by ujoni08 »

Unless the 'natural' gas powered vehicles are using renewably produced bio-gas, they're drawing down a finite fossil fuel, just like a diesel-powered one would. And unless the electric car is using renewably produced electricity from solar, hydro, wind etc. it is drawing down finite fossil fuels (at the power station) just like a petrol car would.

I know the news that the party's over is bad news, but it doesn't mean it isn't true... It's just hard to accept. I found it hard to accept when the realisation dawned on me in 2007. I went through the stages of denial, etc. and thought that technology would save us, but technology isn't energy. If I buy a new solar PV panel and take it inside and put it under the table, it can't produce any energy.

The real SOURCE of energy is the sun. It produced oil, coal and gas by powering the lives of the plants and animals that died and became oil, coal and gas after being subducted, pressurised and baked in two periods starting 150 million and 80 million years ago. It powers the wind and the hydrological cycle. We have to return to using only what energy we can get from the sun during the ten hours or so per day that it shines on us nowadays.

That means edible plants and animals, some wind and some solar, and maybe a few other things like tidal energy. That once-in-a-lifetime endowment of ancient sunlight stored as chemical energy in coal, oil and gas is FINITE! I know there's a lot, but we're using it up at a fantastic rate, and THAT is something that no amount of verbal wriggling can refute.
SleeperService
Posts: 1104
Joined: 02 May 2011, 23:35
Location: Nottingham UK

Post by SleeperService »

+1 to ujoni08 :D

The other elephant in the room is that the oil and gas we're using today takes more energy to get out of the ground and to us.

Generally the easy stuff has been found and has/is being extracted. The Canadian tar sands yield (at best) 4 barrels for every one utilised for extraction, this could be as low as 2 to 1. That means that more and more will need to be extracted to release the same volume for other uses.

Despite the recent price fluctuations production has been effectively constant for some years now. The net energy to market has been in slow decline.

My last employer used electric and LPG powered vehicles but they represented such a tiny proportion of the fleet that they weren't even shown as a percentage on the fleet statistics. They also got driven by the best looking drivers (usually female) so they got noticed more. Oh! and driven through as much traffic as possible....

The irony is that we have the technology NOW to change to a sustainable future, using the remaining reserves to 'power down' we could avoid the mass die-off that threatens. Instead a few greedy corporations, their political allies and paid lackeys are fighting any change. The further irony is that, despite their wealth, they will be very unlikely to survive when things go bang.
Scarcity is the new black
Tarrel
Posts: 2466
Joined: 29 Nov 2011, 22:32
Location: Ross-shire, Scotland
Contact:

Post by Tarrel »

The other elephant in the room is that the oil and gas we're using today takes more energy to get out of the ground and to us
Yes, I've wondered about this. Natural Gas is often championed as a "clean" fuel, in that its CO2 emission are lower than, say, coal, and therefore good as a "transition" fuel. However, when one takes into account the energy involved in getting shale gas "to the stove" so to speak, I wonder how the emissions per kWh used compare with, say, conventional oil or the more easily extracted coal of the past?
Engage in geo-engineering. Plant a tree today.
ceti331
Posts: 310
Joined: 27 Aug 2011, 12:56

Post by ceti331 »

electric cars..

.. does anyone here seriously think renewables could power the same level of transport we have already built our world around.

can renewables even power the same level of telecoms we've built
sure…but peak oil certainly didn't cause the collapse envisioned,
the collapse is very much in progress. one family at a time, one city at a time, one country at a time.
"The stone age didn't end for a lack of stones"... correct, we'll be right back there.
ujoni08
Posts: 880
Joined: 03 Oct 2009, 19:23
Location: Stroud Gloucestershire

Post by ujoni08 »

I don't think any of the regulars on here do, but there is one visitor who seems to think the party will continue...
boisdevie
Posts: 460
Joined: 26 Dec 2012, 18:48
Location: N Lancashire

Post by boisdevie »

ceti331 wrote:electric cars..

.. does anyone here seriously think renewables could power the same level of transport we have already built our world around.

can renewables even power the same level of telecoms we've built
sure…but peak oil certainly didn't cause the collapse envisioned,
the collapse is very much in progress. one family at a time, one city at a time, one country at a time.
A lot of people are still at the stage of 'technology will save us and we can carry on doing more or less the same because we're nice and comfy thanks very much'. They're the ones who think it's OK to fly off here there and everywhere provided they pay some sod on minimum wage to plant trees.
User avatar
RenewableCandy
Posts: 12777
Joined: 12 Sep 2007, 12:13
Location: York

Post by RenewableCandy »

SleperService wrote:...LPG powered vehicles but they represented such a tiny proportion of the fleet that they weren't even shown as a percentage on the fleet statistics. They also got driven by the best looking drivers (usually female)
D'you think that's why they're beginning to tolerate women drivers in Saudi?..
Ralph wrote:...peakers...
Do at least try and make it look as if you're not RGR...
Soyez réaliste. Demandez l'impossible.
Stories
The Price of Time
Post Reply