Why Peak Oil will kill 'gayness'

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Lord Beria3
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Why Peak Oil will kill 'gayness'

Post by Lord Beria3 »

http://theviewfrombrittany.blogspot.co. ... s-les.html
Where things become interesting is that gender roles and norms will likely be as affected by the energy descent as they were by the birth of modern western culture or its arrival on such or such far shore, and so will gayness, or kathoey-ness for that matter. It is easy to see why. As the flow of high grade energy which still keeps our complex societies working dries up, we will be forced to scale down our economies. This means that our societies will become a lot less complex and that our economy will focus out of services toward industry then agriculture. A lot of jobs will simply disappear and domestic economy will make a big come back. This is bound to create a shift in gender roles on the same scale as the one we experienced at the beginning of the modern age or during the seventies. It is impossible to predict the details of this shift and it will doubtlessly vary according to local culture and conditions. The typically western idea that teaching and secretarial work are "women’s jobs” may have interesting consequences several centuries down the road for instance, when a scholarly tradition will have to be revived by teachers and private secretaries.

What is certain, however, is that there will be a return to the domestic economy and that the home, the family and the community will be put back at the center of the society. After the inevitable demise of the welfare state – or of its corporate rivals – there will simply not be no other way to survive rough times. A new repartition of roles between men and women inside the domestic economy will emerge and with it new definitions of what it means to be a man or a woman. These definitions will be based on biology, of course, but there too there will be considerable variations in time and space.


It is unlikely, however, that gayness, as a specific identity, survives such a shift. Human sexuality being fluid, there will be humans with homosexual leaning until the extinction of the species, but in a differently gendered social environment, they will no longer consider their preferred choice of partner as a fundamental element of their identity. Basically, gayness will fade with the culture which has created it.


That does not mean that homosexual people will be persecuted in the post-collapse world (even though they may and will be in some areas), nor that gay marriage will go the way of gay identity. Again it may and will in some areas, but it is not a necessity. Its main interest is that it integrates what was previously a deviance into the world of home and family which will be central in the future.

In fact it may be this integration which will guarantee the survival of gay marriage / coupling and the continued acceptance of homosexuals in some mainstream societies. Separatism of any kind has no place in a society where community cohesion is literally vital but the argument cuts both ways. In such a society it would be stupid to exclude otherwise productive people on the basis of their choice of partner. Gay marriage may fade away in some culture, but where it will have become established, it will probably become just marriage, with all the obligations and responsibilities it entails. Those who will be excluded, and rightly so because they pose a real threat to community cohesion, will be promiscuous and adulterous people, no matter the sex of their targets.


In a sense, gay marriage is one of the conservative measures we need to implement if we are to socially cushion the energy descent. Of course, for the majority of the population it won’t be much, but in some circumstances, redefining normalcy will enable us to better use human resources, as well as allowing previously discriminated people to be productive members of the community, which is by no means negligible.


A very interesting article. The idea that your identity is dominated by the gender of who you sleep live (and which defines you) is actually a very Western and recent one.

Historically, and in other cultures like the Arab world today, there is no such thing as a gay identity. Rather you are a man who might sleep with a boy just as the Romans and Greeks did all the time.
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Post by RenewableCandy »

I think actually there has been something like the "gay identity" for longer than this guy realises: there has always been a section of the population who deal in Entertainment, because there has always been a need for entertainment. Think theatre, travelling minstrels, Tchaikovesky, etc. Their culture has generally been, as I understand it, not unlike the "gay" culture of today. The clue's in the name...
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Post by Snail »

Surely 'gay identity' has existed for as long as homosexuality has been persecuted/considered abnormal and driven underground. As long as the Christian Church at least.
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Post by extractorfan »

I think it means happy clappy type gayness, as opposed to big hairy biker dude gayness.
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Post by jonny2mad »

:shock: looking at our society I think its set up to fail massively from a social point of view even without peak oil .


Fempocalypse!! the world destroyed by feminists
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w__PJ8ymliw

You could ask why homosexuals were oppressed in the west for much of human history my guess is it gave society a advantage over societies that didn’t oppress homosexuals, maybe those societies were meaner and expanded better because they had bigger population growth, maybe oppressing people adds to social cohesion .

My view of what a society should be to survive peak oil is the polar opposite to the transition town fluffy hippy view, I don't try to push my view that much because basically I'm sure some society will rise up that’s meaner and more traditional just because of a process of evolution .

It doesnt really matter what we as individuals want, I may not like the idea of human slavery but if it gives a society a massive advantage to keep slaves very likely people will keep slaves
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Post by extractorfan »

jonny2mad wrote:
It doesnt really matter what we as individuals want, I may not like the idea of human slavery but if it gives a society a massive advantage to keep slaves very likely people will keep slaves
absolutely, people often mistake what you predict to happen for what you want to happen...
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Post by jonny2mad »

extractorfan wrote:
jonny2mad wrote:
It doesnt really matter what we as individuals want, I may not like the idea of human slavery but if it gives a society a massive advantage to keep slaves very likely people will keep slaves
absolutely, people often mistake what you predict to happen for what you want to happen...
Well partly, I do actually want to sack milton keynes with a brutal army of teddy bear cultists carrying thompson machine guns :shock: :shock:

I can see us now stalking away from the burning city carrying maidens and sacks of porridge

And most likely your going aww he's kidding again... teddy bear cultists milton keynes .... :shock: but then one day there will be a series of raids on honey factorys reported on the news :shock:
"What causes more suffering in the world than the stupidity of the compassionate?"Friedrich Nietzsche

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Post by extractorfan »

I didn't mean you as in just you, it was a kind of royal you. I should have said we. Oh nevermind :lol:
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Post by RenewableCandy »

Early 18thC Britain had the Gay/Theatre "identity" part of society and, as far as the country's Macho, Empire-building coefficient was concerned, it didn't seem to do us any harm.

(thinks...why do I find the prospect of sacking Milton Keynes disturbingly appealing?..)
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Post by Lord Beria3 »

Jonny2mad - Alexander the Great had a famous gay lover... didn't stop him being successful!

Ditto the Spartans, one of the most successful military powers of ancient Greece, which had institutionalised homosexuality in their armed forces. Roman Empire attitude to homosexuality was pretty relaxed.

Afraid your argument just doesn't stack up at all.
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Post by Oxenstierna »

If gayness is a Western construct based around an interpretation of certain human sexual behaviours, then its latest development - gay marriage - may well have a short lifespan.

In countries like France and the UK the demographic shift is towards an increase in those who are of non Western origin.

As those populations grow in influence and numbers, how will their different cultural traditions and understandings start to have an influence on civic life?

I suspect that we are already experiencing "peak sexuality" in the West and in 30 - 40 years time there could be a surprisingly different set of attitudes towards same sex relations than exists now.
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Post by extractorfan »

Lord Beria3 wrote:Jonny2mad - Alexander the Great had a famous gay lover... didn't stop him being successful!

Ditto the Spartans, one of the most successful military powers of ancient Greece, which had institutionalised homosexuality in their armed forces. Roman Empire attitude to homosexuality was pretty relaxed.

Afraid your argument just doesn't stack up at all.
Ah, but in Sparta it wasn't referred to as gayness, or homosexuality or whatever, it was just an activity that some men partook. They were still expected and even coerced into marriage with a female.

I think it likely that gay people will become less....erm....exuberant, but of course they will still exist.
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Post by Lord Beria3 »

Precisely my point.

And it is a Western myth that gays are incapable of finding woman attractive. Matthew Parris, the gay writer in the Times, wrote in a very good article about how its a taboo that even gay men like him have found 'straight' urgings from time to time.

Sexuality is far more fluid than commonly thought.
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Post by Little John »

Societies that suppress homosexuality may actually foster higher levels of homosexuality in them than would otherwise be the case if we assume that homosexuality has a partial or, even, mainly genetic origin. The reason is fairly straightforward and a little thought experiment will demonstrate:

Assume we have a society with an arbitrary initial level of genetically based homosexuality of, say, 1%. In this society, homosexuality is not only tolerated, it is celebrated as a valid form of sexuality. This results in two things. Firstly, there will be a small number of people who will have a genetically based tendency towards bisexuality. For such people, living in a sexually tolerant society such as this, they will be more likely to openly express their bisexuality in terms of their sexual behaviour, thus raising the level of homosexual behaviour in society overall a little. Secondly, again due to the tolerant nature of this society, homosexuals are unlikely to feel under any pressure to heterosexually procreate. This, in turn means they will be less likely to pass on their genetic predisposition to homosexuality to any offspring. Thus, in such a society, the level of homosexuality will tend to remain stable at a level that is commensurate with the ongoing occurrence of background genetic mutations.

Assume we have a second society with an arbitrary initial level of genetically based homosexuality of, say, 1%. In this society, homosexuality is actively suppressed. Consequently, people do not openly express their homosexuality and are far more likely to embark on heterosexual relationships simply in order to fit in. This, in turn means they are far more likely to heterosexually procreate and so produce offspring who may also inherit the tendency towards homosexuality. Over time, this will mean that the proportion of people in this society who have a genetic predisposition to homosexuality (but who are forced to suppress it) will actually rise.

In short, if homosexuality is largely genetic in basis, homophobic societies will tend to have a higher number of unhappy homosexuals as compared to sexually tolerant societies who will tend to have lower numbers of happy homosexuals.
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Post by extractorfan »

Lord Beria3 wrote:
Sexuality is far more fluid than commonly thought.
Don't knock it till you've tried it in other words. :shock:
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