Sustainable Farming

Forum for general discussion of Peak Oil / Oil depletion; also covering related subjects

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malthus
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Sustainable Farming

Post by malthus »

Fossil fuels, especially oil used to power farming, have enabled the world population to triple in the last seventy years.
This could be a fatal mistake as fossil fuels are finite and their use results in increased greenhouse gas emissions. The resulting climate change is itself affecting food production.
As a farmer, I an convinced that when oil inevitably becomes scarce through depletion or geopolitical events, our farming system will fail, causing chaos and starvation.
I have posted a video on youtube explaining the problem and suggesting a way to power farming using electricity generated by renewable methods or even nuclear power.
The cost of energy needed to power farming would also be reduced by about 50%.
This subject desperately needs debate.
I have only just found this forum, but it looks to be a good place to start.
See www.youtube.com/amptrac
    malthus
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    Post by malthus »

    Link not working. Have I done it wrong.
    http://www.youtube.com/amptrac
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    clv101
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    Post by clv101 »

    Nice vid... I think it makes for sense to reduce the reliance on tractors, than to swap power source.

    It's a familiar problem. Faced with a liquid fuels shortage, do we swap out the vehicle fleet for electric cars and carry on as before, or do we do away with 90% of the vehicles by not living 20 miles from our daily place of work, by not eating food and buying good produced hundreds or even thousands of miles away... I'd argue for reducing the mileage dramatically first, and then think about switching power source.

    We already know farming is hopelessly energy inefficient - but fantastically labour efficient. Just under 1% of the workforce are involved in primary agriculture, 100 years ago it was more like 30%. We've optimised farming to be labour efficient, not energy efficient. Seems strange when we have a shortage of energy and a surplus of labour (unemployment!). I'd suggest the plan for the next decade or two should be to increase that 1% of the workforce to around 5%.
    Little John

    Post by Little John »

    malthus wrote:Link not working. Have I done it wrong.
    http://www.youtube.com/amptrac
    It's working
    Little John

    Post by Little John »

    clv101 wrote:Nice vid... I think it makes for sense to reduce the reliance on tractors, than to swap power source.

    It's a familiar problem. Faced with a liquid fuels shortage, do we swap out the vehicle fleet for electric cars and carry on as before, or do we do away with 90% of the vehicles by not living 20 miles from our daily place of work, by not eating food and buying good produced hundreds or even thousands of miles away... I'd argue for reducing the mileage dramatically first, and then think about switching power source.

    We already know farming is hopelessly energy inefficient - but fantastically labour efficient. Just under 1% of the workforce are involved in primary agriculture, 100 years ago it was more like 30%. We've optimised farming to be labour efficient, not energy efficient. Seems strange when we have a shortage of energy and a surplus of labour (unemployment!). I'd suggest the plan for the next decade or two should be to increase that 1% of the workforce to around 5%.
    In the absence of legislation to force them to economically act in a particular way, It comes down to cost for the farmer. In other words, what makes the farmer the most money?

    1) The cost of a tractor plus all of the maintenance costs, plus the cost of biofuels to power it, all set against the profit from a reduced acreage of crops/livestock due to some of it having to be set aside for biofuel production

    or

    2) The cost of employing a number of workers sufficient to replace the work of the tractor

    I suspect that it will be more profitable for the farmer to use a tractor for a long time yet. The problem with that, though, is that what is most profitable for a farmer is not always equivalent to what is best for the population at large.

    A good example of what I mean by that last sentence is the situation that has developed in recent years in India. In India, onions are a staple crop. However, it is now more profitable for big farmers in India to turn over their land to biofuel production which they then sell onto the international markets than it is to grow onions for local consumption. The major consequence of this is that onion production in India has significantly declined in recent years which, in turn, has sparked serious riots over their escalating price.

    I hasten to add, I am not blaming farmers for this. They, like everyone else, are compelled to act in their best economic interests. If they don't, their competitors will and they will go out of business as a consequence. The only way the above is resolved is by changing the ground rules from above such that farmers interests and the interests of the population as a whole are forced to converge.

    If we want to see a return to more labour intensive farming in order minimise the amount of land turned over to biofuel production to fuel our farming and, in turn, maximise the land available for food production as well as providing employment opportunities for our populations, it will only happen is it is legislatively enforced. It is unreasonable and therefore unrealistic to expect farmers to do this themselves as it would significantly economically disadvantage them against any of their competitors who chose not to take such a path.
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    Post by clv101 »

    stevecook172001 wrote:I suspect that it will be more profitable for the farmer to use a tractor for a long time yet. The problem with that, though, is that what is most profitable for a farmer is not always equivalent to what is best for the population at large.
    ...
    If we want to see a return to more labour intensive farming in order minimise the amount of land turned over to biofuel production to fuel our farming and, in turn, maximise the land available for food production as well as providing employment opportunities for our populations, it will only happen is it is legislatively enforced. It is unreasonable and therefore unrealistic to expect farmers to do this themselves as it would significantly economically disadvantage them against any of their competitors who chose not to take such a path.
    Absolutely. I think we sometimes forget that farming isn't about growing food - it's about making a profit, just like any other business. The legislation change I'd like to see if a shift in taxation, away from labour and on to energy and materials. Make it a lot cheaper to employ someone but more expensive to mechanise. We currently have the strange situation where labour is taxed a lot and non-renewable resources are taxed very little - seems backwards to me.
    Last edited by clv101 on 03 Oct 2012, 13:34, edited 1 time in total.
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    Post by ziggy12345 »

    Fossil fuels also make the nitrates and mine the potash required for growing crops. Just replacing the tractors in only half the story
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    Post by extractorfan »

    clv101 wrote: Absolutely. I think we sometimes forget that farming is about growing food - it's about making a profit, just like any other business. The legislation change I'd like to see if a shift in taxation, away from labour and on to energy and materials. Make it a lot cheaper to employ someone but more expensive to mechanise. We currently have the strange situation where labour is taxed a lot and non-renewable resources are taxed very little - seems backwards to me.
    what a wonderfully "outside the box" way of putting it.
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    PaulS
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    Post by PaulS »

    Hi Malthus,

    I also farm, having started in 2005 without any previous farming experience as a way to build a little lifeboat in the face of PO and CC.

    That worked really well.

    We converted to organic and gradually replaced all our fossil fuel requirements by renewable energy. Nowadays we use near zero fossil fuels, but still farm using machinery and delivering our produce locally and also to the London area.

    Have a look at www.CottageFarmOrganics.co.uk for more details.
    What a shame, seemed quite promising, this human species.
    Check out www.TransitionNC.org & www.CottageFarmOrganics.co.uk
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    Post by malthus »

    ziggy12345 wrote:Fossil fuels also make the nitrates and mine the potash required for growing crops. Just replacing the tractors in only half the story
    That is true. Nitrogen production and distribution uses lots of fossil energy. We need plant breeding programs to produce better legume crops and maybe even cereal crops that fix nitrogen from the air.
    However, our relience on oil to power farming is really dangerous. Without diesel in our tanks, farming comes to a standstill and one day that will happen.
    Modern diesel powered machinery is fantastic. The speed at which one crop is harvested and the next planted makes me think that a return to more human or animal power would result in much lower yields.
    We need to power farming using renewables and develop a method before it's too late.
    Little John

    Post by Little John »

    PaulS wrote:Hi Malthus,

    I also farm, having started in 2005 without any previous farming experience as a way to build a little lifeboat in the face of PO and CC.

    That worked really well.

    We converted to organic and gradually replaced all our fossil fuel requirements by renewable energy. Nowadays we use near zero fossil fuels, but still farm using machinery and delivering our produce locally and also to the London area.

    Have a look at www.CottageFarmOrganics.co.uk for more details.
    Does the renewable energy your machinery runs on take up land that could/would otherwise be used for food production?
    Little John

    Post by Little John »

    malthus wrote:
    ziggy12345 wrote:Fossil fuels also make the nitrates and mine the potash required for growing crops. Just replacing the tractors in only half the story
    That is true. Nitrogen production and distribution uses lots of fossil energy. We need plant breeding programs to produce better legume crops and maybe even cereal crops that fix nitrogen from the air.
    However, our relience on oil to power farming is really dangerous. Without diesel in our tanks, farming comes to a standstill and one day that will happen.
    Modern diesel powered machinery is fantastic. The speed at which one crop is harvested and the next planted makes me think that a return to more human or animal power would result in much lower yields.
    We need to power farming using renewables and develop a method before it's too late.
    The questions that spring to my mind are:

    How much hydrocarbon energy is needed to fuel the machinery to produce food on a typical farm?

    If that hydrocarbon energy were to be completely replaced by renewable energy for the subsequent transformation to electrical energy how much land would be needed to generate it for a typical farm.

    How much would food prices rise as a consequence of turning over some of the land to renewable energy production as opposed to the rise in prices that is inevitably happening from the use of diminishing supplies of hydrocarbons?

    In others words, what is the point at which it costs more for the farmer to use hydrocarbons than it does to lose some of his profit potential by turning some of his land over to renewable energy production?

    I suspect we are a some way off that point yet and, in any event, when it does happen it will mean lowered food production which will, in turn mean higher prices for a population that will be progressively shorter on work and therefore money to pay the higher prices.

    Biomass based renewables that involve the use of land that would otherwise be used for food production don't solve the coming crisis and non biomass based renewables (wind, wave solar etc) simply don't provide the speed and stability of flow to be able to adequately replace hydrocarbons so they don't work either.

    We need less people at which point, any number of renewable energy solutions will work.
    Last edited by Little John on 03 Oct 2012, 14:30, edited 1 time in total.
    malthus
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    Post by malthus »

    stevecook 172001. You are right, we do need less people on the planet but we don't want the reduction to include ourselves or our children.
    Most recent famines have been in poor countries, but it is us in the highly mechanised West that will suffer when our farming system fails.
    I will try to answer your other questions soon, but the sun is shining and I have wheat to drill.
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    Post by clv101 »

    stevecook172001 wrote:We need less people at which point, any number of renewable energy solutions will work.
    If the people we had just ate different diets, if the food system didn't waste such vast amounts of food (a) at the farm, (b) during processing, (c) during distribution and (d) in the kitchen and if we ate more locally we could dramatically reduce the energy requirements of food.

    Am I right in thinking more energy is used in food distribution (a lot of that in our own cars driving to the shops) than in actually growing it?

    I'd suggesting thinking about population once our currently hopelessly inefficient food system has been addressed.
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    Post by emordnilap »

    clv101 wrote:Am I right in thinking more energy is used in food distribution (a lot of that in our own cars driving to the shops) than in actually growing it?
    I wouldn't be surprised. Plus it's eminently possible that there is more embodied energy in packaging than in whatever food it encloses.

    To veer slightly away from the topic, I often think about someone sitting with their car engines running while they're on the phone. In calorie terms, they'll quite likely burn more energy than I require for my entire cycle to work - but get nowhere for it.
    I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
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