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The consumer society is unsustainable
Posted: 28 Jul 2012, 06:53
by Aurora
Deborah Orr - The Guardian - 27/07/12
Just as it was asked to, the nation shopped till it dropped. And how it has dropped, into a double-dip recession the like of which has not been seen for 50 years. Now, economists argue that demand must be stimulated. People need to feel confident about buying stuff again. Banks need to feel confident about lending them the money to do so. Cameron may bluster about how the coalition has to pick up the pieces after an unsustainable boom. But he seems utterly unable to understand what a paradoxical message he is delivering. He wants people to relax and start spending. But he also insists that it was relaxing and spending that got the economy into this mess. Meanwhile, no one seems willing to state the obvious: that it's consumer society itself that is unsustainable, not just ecologically but economically.
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Posted: 28 Jul 2012, 11:03
by Catweazle
Nicely put, and obvious to anyone who has thought about it.
"Growth" in Camerons mind seems to mean people out in the shops spending QE money, but this can only be a temporary fix, they will buy imported leisure goods and the whole QE process will have to start again.
If they really want to fix the economy ( as far as it's possible to do so ) then perhaps they should be giving away free master-classes in how to innovate, manufacture and export. Preferably with the backing for those who show aptitude. I believe that we have some inventive, creative people and they should be heralded as the future of Team GB.
I have nothing against the marketeers, advertising agencies etc. but they should be pushing British products abroad, not selling Chinese goods to us.
Posted: 28 Jul 2012, 16:04
by Snail
can the uk revive its manufacturing sector sufficiently to compete with China? Particularly with increasing energy costs here.
Should we even try? Europe has constantly reinvented itself over and over again.
Farming, weapons, medicine, science, finance over the centuries to keep us top-dog.
Could be moving to a post-consumer economy is another revolution. Europe is the first group of nations to reach the resource limitation. Like before, this continent (or one region within it) will have to innovate.
But I don't think we can compete with the rest of the world now.
Re: The consumer society is unsustainable
Posted: 28 Jul 2012, 17:23
by kenneal - lagger
Aurora wrote:Deborah Orr - The Guardian - 27/07/12
......People need to feel confident about buying stuff again. Banks need to feel confident about lending them the money to do so. ...
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That is a load of rubbish. People should be paid enough to enable them to buy stuff. It's no good buying on tick because you need twice the buying power to do that. You need money to buy the stuff and you need as much again to pay the interest. If people had some spare cash they could save, getting interest from the bank, and then buy with that cash. They could then start saving again. It's a bit like buying on credit but you get paid to do it rather than paying through the nose for it.
If we were encouraged to save from an early age we could pay cash for stuff. We just need to be paid enough to do it. It's the only way that the capitalist system can keep going.
Posted: 28 Jul 2012, 17:38
by Catweazle
Snail wrote:can the uk revive its manufacturing sector sufficiently to compete with China? Particularly with increasing energy costs here.
Should we even try?
We could pull our horns in, isolate ourselves, endure decades of austerity and sink slowly into obscurity. Or, we could start baling water by re-starting our industry.
It won't be easy, I'm not sure it's even possible, but given the choice of spending what's left of the money on encouraging consumer spending or helping what's left of our industry the choice is clear to me.
Posted: 28 Jul 2012, 20:04
by revdode
Catweazle wrote:I'm not sure it's even possible, but given the choice of spending what's left of the money on encouraging consumer spending or helping what's left of our industry the choice is clear to me.
I had this discussion with some friends who woke up recently and started to realize that actually manufacturing has some value. I try to be positive as I made my living for most of my life in manufacturing but the problem is modern manufacturing is quite a complex business. Manufacturers need supply chains, converters, processors and producers and more often than not those currently end in China.
On costs already for high diversity business part costs for plastics, pressings and die casting are comparable between Europe and China but far eastern suppliers are faster (6 weeks vs 12 weeks in europe) and tool costs are still far lower, I suspect the latter point is related to support.
My feeling is without specific action to rebuild it then probably we are looking at a 30 year project. Do we have 30 years?
Posted: 29 Jul 2012, 18:56
by Catweazle
revdode wrote:Do we have 30 years?
I doubt it. I would like to say we could, once again, lead the world in the design part of the manufacturing process but it's expensive and there is no effective way to stop the emerging economies ripping off our designs.
Re: The consumer society is unsustainable
Posted: 30 Jul 2012, 11:18
by emordnilap
kenneal - lagger wrote:People should be paid enough to enable them to buy stuff.
A central point.
We also need to take away the power of the banks to create money.
Re: The consumer society is unsustainable
Posted: 30 Jul 2012, 11:32
by Little John
emordnilap wrote:kenneal - lagger wrote:People should be paid enough to enable them to buy stuff.
A central point.
We also need to take away the power of the banks to create money.
I get the feeling that they have such an utter stranglehold on the levers of political power in the world that if we actually tried to emasculate them by taking away their power to create money the people at the top of the global banking system would sooner instigate a world war before allowing that to happen.
I'm not kidding.
Re: The consumer society is unsustainable
Posted: 30 Jul 2012, 11:57
by emordnilap
stevecook172001 wrote:emordnilap wrote:kenneal - lagger wrote:People should be paid enough to enable them to buy stuff.
A central point.
We also need to take away the power of the banks to create money.
I get the feeling that they have such an utter stranglehold on the levers of political power in the world that if we actually tried to emasculate them by taking away their power to create money the people at the top of the global banking system would sooner instigate a world war before allowing that to happen.
I'm not kidding.
Oh, they would, nothing surer. Vote someone into power who proposes abolishing banks' power and we'd see how unexplainable 'accidents' then occur.
But I'm serious. It's quite possibly the one single change we need.
Re: The consumer society is unsustainable
Posted: 30 Jul 2012, 12:17
by Little John
emordnilap wrote:stevecook172001 wrote:emordnilap wrote:
A central point.
We also need to take away the power of the banks to create money.
I get the feeling that they have such an utter stranglehold on the levers of political power in the world that if we actually tried to emasculate them by taking away their power to create money the people at the top of the global banking system would sooner instigate a world war before allowing that to happen.
I'm not kidding.
Oh, they would, nothing surer. Vote someone into power who proposes abolishing banks' power and we'd see how unexplainable 'accidents' then occur.
But I'm serious. It's quite possibly the one single change we need.
I agree. Its the central evil in the world. I guess i would argue that the only way we are ever going to wrest control from them is with real physical struggle. It won't happen through the existing political machinery. And so, unless and until that real physical struggle gets under way, nothing will change. We have certainly seen a few tentative indications of it beginning over the last year or two. But, it is just as likely to be extinguished as it is to grow.
Posted: 30 Jul 2012, 14:59
by SleeperService
It's not just the banks
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comm ... oogle.html
This was linked off a hobby site I use, I really think the message is starting to get out there
