PowerSwitch

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/fina ... apart.html

Also last night, the chairman of the supervisory board of China Investment Corporation, the country’s sovereign wealth fund, put further distance between China and the eurozone bail-out, saying that Europe’s bloated welfare state meant that people did not work hard enough.

“I think if you look at the troubles which happened in European countries, this is purely because of the accumulated troubles of their worn out welfare societies,” Jin Liqun said in an interview with Al Jazeera television. “I think the labour laws are outdated – the labour laws induce sloth, indolence rather than hard working. The incentive system is totally out of whack.”

Eurozone leaders had been hoping that China would use some of its trade surplus to back the bail-out fund.

As the European welfare state model is now relying on the Chinese to bailout their systems, this is not a good message for the future of social democracy in Continental Europe!

As I have said before, we have reached Peak Welfare State - things will only get tougher from now on.

To have the likes of China lecturing us is intolerable. I really wish the UK would print even more money and use it to pay off most of our debt. To hell with inflation. Or simply default. And start a new currency and more stable financial system. Stick two fingers to the Chinese. Better to get it over and done with now, rather than repeatedly kow-towing to the pious Chinese 'government'. We're not some sort of hive workers you know.

The wellfare state didn't cause this problem.

I've been saying all along that the welfare state is broken, and encourages laziness and dishonesty, and discourages thrift, but the solution is not to abolish it, but to replace it with one that doesn't have those problems: citizen's income.

We're heading for a very severe recession worldwide and there will be a lot less work to go around. The solution is not to make people redundant but to reduce working hours so that everyone can keep their job, and reducing pay accordingly. This will mean everyone working less hard. And those at the top - having fcuked things up for the rest of us - should take the biggest pay cut of all.

We should never have asked - or expected - help or advice from the Chinese. It's not their problem, they don't understand our system, and whichever way you measure it their system is worse.

Snail wrote:To have the likes of China lecturing us is intolerable. I really wish the UK would print even more money and use it to pay off most of our debt. To hell with inflation. Or simply default. And start a new currency and more stable financial system. Stick two fingers to the Chinese. Better to get it over and done with now, rather than repeatedly kow-towing to the pious Chinese 'government'. We're not some sort of hive workers you know.

The wellfare state didn't cause this problem.

Get used to I'm afraid. Looks like you rely on someone else to fund your lifestyle.
Or I don't understand irony

alternative-energy wrote:

Snail wrote:To have the likes of China lecturing us is intolerable. I really wish the UK would print even more money and use it to pay off most of our debt. To hell with inflation. Or simply default. And start a new currency and more stable financial system. Stick two fingers to the Chinese. Better to get it over and done with now, rather than repeatedly kow-towing to the pious Chinese 'government'. We're not some sort of hive workers you know.

The wellfare state didn't cause this problem.

Get used to I'm afraid. Looks like you rely on someone else to fund your lifestyle.

Sorry, but what the hell do you know about my 'lifestyle'. I live in a caravan, after living in a van, and use a solar panel for most of my electricity needs, while spending money on very little. Lost my job a while ago, signed on, treated like dirt, signed off. Living on my savings/making a little doing odd jobs. No one funds my lifestyle, and has never funded my lifestyle. I have always taken very little/nothing from the state.

How long ago was China a basket-case economy.

Snail wrote:

alternative-energy wrote:

Snail wrote:To have the likes of China lecturing us is intolerable. I really wish the UK would print even more money and use it to pay off most of our debt. To hell with inflation. Or simply default. And start a new currency and more stable financial system. Stick two fingers to the Chinese. Better to get it over and done with now, rather than repeatedly kow-towing to the pious Chinese 'government'. We're not some sort of hive workers you know.

The wellfare state didn't cause this problem.

Get used to I'm afraid. Looks like you rely on someone else to fund your lifestyle.

Sorry, but what the hell do you know about my 'lifestyle'. I live in a caravan, after living in a van, and use a solar panel for most of my electricity needs, while spending money on very little. Lost my job a while ago, signed on, treated like dirt, signed off. Living on my savings/making a little doing odd jobs. No one funds my lifestyle, and has never funded my lifestyle. I have always taken very little/nothing from the state.

How long ago was China a basket-case economy.

Sounds like you are coping admirably in spite of the economy, sincerley best of luck to you Snail.
Just remember this country, like most Western countries, is broke. China now calls the shots as the West diminishes, it is the end of the welfare state as we have known it. Many people will be in your position not because of choice, like yourself, but through necessity.

Apologies for getting angry alternative-energy. Remember also that the current financial system never properly reflected reality. Including the one which allowed China to grow so quickly. Yes, we're broke but swapping real assets for Chinese domination is a big no imo. We're talking about real things and quasi-imaginary things! The West should not allow itself to become enslaved. Not over a thing as insubstantial as numbers on a balance sheet.

Wellfare has turned into a farce, but should not be abolished. I like the Citizens-wage idea. And wouldn't mind a Citizens-wage coupled with a far lower minimum wage (or even none at all).

RogueMale wrote: We're heading for a very severe recession worldwide and there will be a lot less work to go around. The solution is not to make people redundant but to reduce working hours so that everyone can keep their job, and reducing pay accordingly. This will mean everyone working less hard.

This needs thinking through very carefully. The underlying problem is that we have been trying to grow an economy dependant on energy use at a time when energy production can't be grown. I'm not sure how working less hard gets us round that problem.

biffvernon wrote:This needs thinking through very carefully. The underlying problem is that we have been trying to grow an economy dependant on energy use at a time when energy production can't be grown. I'm not sure how working less hard gets us round that problem.

Reduction of working hours, not increased automation.

There's a dire need for new political thinking and ideas. Occasionally interesting old ideas, like Social Credit, get an airing, but mostly people are trying to build a post-peak "narrative" around their current political beliefs, instead of changing them to fit changed circumstances.

Reduction of working hours, no increased automation and at a time of energy production not growing. Sound like less stuff.

Well, it's a plan. How do we sell it to the masses?

biffvernon wrote:Reduction of working hours, no increased automation and at a time of energy production not growing. Sound like less stuff.

Well, it's a plan. How do we sell it to the masses?

Might be worth acquiring an understanding of "public relations", e.g. looking into why people believe what they do. It's rarely because they've evaluated all the evidence - they have a particular outlook on life and in something like peak oil, or global warming, they select the evidence which agrees with their outlook, thereby strengthening it, rather than change their outlook. Their outlook has to be changed first, and often it can.

There is a law of diminishing returns, when it comes to reducing job hours. Most jobs are not as simple is slotting in a new worker at a bench - they require continuity of input, and would require a large amount of handover time and documentation, if jobs are to be completed in a realistic time. The more skilled and/or the more human interaction required, then the less easy it is to job share.

I wasn't suggesting that people share jobs. I was suggesting reducing the number of hours they work on their current job. It might mean sharing work around more evenly if particular roles aren't needed, but this is done already. It might mean things like working from home, and not having, so that the work gets done properly.

Benefits: less stress, more focus on quality, more leisure time.

I'm just brainstorming, and a lot of things will have to be figured out. One way to have good ideas is to have lots of ideas and throw away the bad ones.

RalphW wrote:There is a law of diminishing returns, when it comes to reducing job hours. Most jobs are not as simple is slotting in a new worker at a bench - they require continuity of input, and would require a large amount of handover time and documentation, if jobs are to be completed in a realistic time. The more skilled and/or the more human interaction required, then the less easy it is to job share.

Indeed. It makes no economic sense for companies to distribute work among more people.

In fact, the opposite happens. Rather than two people doing one person's job, one person is made to do two people's jobs.

Ludwig wrote:Indeed. It makes no economic sense for companies to distribute work among more people.

In fact, the opposite happens. Rather than two people doing one person's job, one person is made to do two people's jobs.

That's not what I wrote. Each company would have to distribute less work among the same number of people. Yes, this is less efficient, and projects would take twice as long, but you're taking it as axiomatic that efficiency is the only thing that matters. The wider needs of society are also important. Choose between a country where half the people are as well off financially as they are now and the other half destitute, and one where everyone is half as well off as they are now.