Peak Oil and 911

[dr_doom]

Probably the only alternative to any of these hierarchical systems would be anarchy.

Difficult to uninvent ideas, especially ideas that coincide with temptations of power. I dont think anarchy is sustainable when confronted by hierarchical power.

Although on the side of anarchy it might at least lead to a natural readjustment in population, and redistribution of wealth and power.

As opposed to an intellectual elite imposing on the masses what they believe is best for us.

[RevdTess]

Although on the side of anarchy it might at least lead to a natural readjustment in population, and redistribution of wealth and power.

As opposed to an intellectual elite imposing on the masses what they believe is best for us.

I'm something of a fan of anarchism - was a regular reader of http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/ some years ago, which is also where i was exposed to the various conspiracies regarding 9/11. What I lack is any faith in anarchism's ability to withstand the hierarchical impulse (either internal or external) for any significant period.

[dr_doom]

Although on the side of anarchy it might at least lead to a natural readjustment in population, and redistribution of wealth and power.

As opposed to an intellectual elite imposing on the masses what they believe is best for us.

I'm something of a fan of anarchism - was a regular reader of http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/ some years ago, which is also where i was exposed to the various conspiracies regarding 9/11. What I lack is any faith in anarchism's ability to withstand the hierarchical impulse (either internal or external) for any significant period.

Fair point.

The world needs a power structure.

However I think privately owned central banks, fractional reserve banking and fiat currency. All of which are going to leave the majority of people in the world destitute in the coming years should be exposed for the fraud that they are.

The worst thing that could happen is if a series of financial crises and ensuing wars coerce the population into accepting a one world government or new world order.

[EmptyBee]

Fair point.

The world needs a power structure.

I don't think the world ever needed a power structure. A society on our level of complexity clearly requires power structures. That's not to say there's a law of nature that states power structures must naturally arise. I personally have come to think of hierarchy as an unfortunate aberration for the most part.

However, I think Tess is right - it's likely to be a persistent meme that's unlikely to disappear of its own accord.

They f*ck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.

But they were f***ed up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another's throats.

Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don't have any kids yourself.

Phillip Larkin

[wayne72]

I'm not saying the middle class "sucks" wealth away from the richest one percent. If anything, it's the other way around obviously.

In that case, why seek to get rid of them? I dont see the motivation.

The ultimate plan according to the more wild conspiracy theorists.
Is that the elites want to revert to a feudal system.

No more middle class, simply a two tier system with rulers and slaves.

For the people at the top it's not even about money or accumulating more wealth.

It is about holding on to the power that they already have.

They obviously see this as the most likely plan to succeed in the face of PO.

Historians now believe Ancient Egypt never had slaves rather it was Farmers etc. who worked on the Pyramids as their work during the months when the Land Flooded and they were not Slaves as initially first thought.

[wayne72]

Yes, that's exactly the point. It's not very well hidden.

Actually, did we ever leave the feudal system? One thing I've noticed from my mba studies is how our big complex capitalist system just looks exactly like feudalism to me. It's a difficult cancer to remove.

Well the only difference is the number of levels.
At the moment several exist below the ruling class: upper middle class, middle class, working class etc.

Probably the only alternative to any of these hierarchical systems would be anarchy.

No there aren't no different levels, there's the Haves, the Have Nots and Everyone Else in between. Its always been this way and probably always will be. Only Debt and Credit allows for people to think we have different class systems!

[fishertrop]

The current system stays intact largely because people believe in it - because it works for them.

The masses don't care for morals or ideology, they care about standard-of-living.

If the middle-class is primarily supported by easy credit and stocks-and-shares in various forms, affordable goods etc then so long as this continues then the current system will be incredibly strong. Every person in the large and influential middle-class will work to ensure it stays intact.

The fact that this rolls a lot of money uphill to the PTB doesn't matter so long as the middle-class keep "growing" (read "consuming"...).

If you were in the PTB group you would never do anything to break or upset this - it's your cash cow (as many have said already).

But what if the things that underpinned this cast-iron middle-class support could not continue for some reason?

Whatever the cause of failure, conerstones such as unemployment, repossessions, stock market devaluations, loss of purchasing power, no more chance to buy ipods, a feeling they had been reduced to a class level "Lower" than they had, would produce a furious reaction from the middle class, would it not?

Since in the UK we still have universal sufferage that could easily mean a voter backlash and some-other-party taking over the helm. Look at how labour got into power in '97... Not nesseccarily a party that best serves TPTB.

It would likely also mean a near total-loss of the cash-cow that had funded the PTB.

If the destruction of the middle-class was to come from something that the PTB could not control then they would have to begin working on plans for a new paradigm for the future, and how they were going to transition to it.

This paradigm would likely not be what's best for the masses but what is best for TPTB.

If our current system was really watertight with no credible risks on the horizon I would not buy any theory that would intentionally damage the status quo.

Since the status quo looks increasingly unsustainable for a dozen different reasons and since TPTB would likely never tolerate a drop in their own status/standards AND they have the power to influence what happens next, I wonder they are thinking....

[Joe]

Since in the UK we still have universal sufferage that could easily mean a voter backlash and some-other-party taking over the helm. Look at how labour got into power in '97... Not nesseccarily a party that best serves TPTB.

I broadly agree with your post but I'm not sure this example stands up to scrutiny - Blair & chums did a LOT of work persuading key members of the UK business elite that their interests would be safe in Labour's hands ahead of the 97 election.

For example, Tony & Cherie allegedly spent a week on Rupert Murdoch's private island ahead of the Sun famously coming out in support of New Labour.

I think if New Labour had been a significant threat to the powers that be, they would have struggled to get in without the Sun's backing - despite the scandal and pathetic performance that had characterised the preceeding tory governments.

[extractorfan]

For example, Tony & Cherie allegedly spent a week on Rupert Murdoch's private island ahead of the Sun famously coming out in support of New Labour.

They had to do this as well as scrap clause 4. They became conservtive with a twist of social conscience, since forgotten.

[lukasz]

The lesson from history is that we don't learn from history.

You are absolutely right here. I couldn't agree more.

I don't like being a lone voice but I'm happy to carry on trying, just as all us peakninks continue the uphill struggle with promoting PO. It's quite hard to be branded a weirdo or traitor but when the evidence is there it is hard to ignore. I feel I have a moral obligation to make the world a better place for my children. I make no apologies for that regardless of how pompous it may sound.

I have two questions:

1. What would possibly make you believe that the 9/11 wasn't orchestrated by
US government? If there is no such a "prove" then your theory is un-dis-provable
i.e. it is like religion and there is no point to discuss. Are You a missionary

2. Slightly simpler one. Why is there no a single whistle blower. The point of
not yet police state is that there exist a free press. In case of Watergate which
was much smaller operation it worked. This one should be a huge thing like hundreds of
people involved. Look at the similarity with religion If suddenly the sky opened and
the God's hand slap me and told me keep my hands on the cover, I would
be faced with a prove that I have been all along wrong with my atheism. Similarly here
if there is a whistle blower who comes and on TV says I was helping to plant explosives
in the WTC, I will have to accepts that I was all the time wrong, you were right.
Until them I guess one can find more productive ways of spending time.

Regards
Lukasz

[fishertrop]

The interview and website discussed on the following thread has some interesting viewpoints about the whole 9/11 event.

http://www.powerswitch.org.uk/forum/vie ... php?t=1690

Anyone doing 9/11 research is well advised (by me at least...) to include this material.

[MacG]

The interview and website discussed on the following thread has some interesting viewpoints about the whole 9/11 event.

http://www.powerswitch.org.uk/forum/vie ... php?t=1690

Anyone doing 9/11 research is well advised (by me at least...) to include this material.

Indeed. I find his suggestion for for the reason of the collapse of the buildings most compelling. Buildings like these might be wired and charged for destruction already when they are built in order to be able to control and contain anything which might happen to them, including earthquakes, fires and airplane collissions. Quite naturally, you dont want to tell people that a building is wired and charged - might affect their comfort level and job performance and such. Someone panicked or made a mistake or decided to cash in on the insurance or something, but the destruction was not part of the plan.

Anyhow, as I've written before, it dont really matter anymore. The crimes committed when exploiting the events of 9/11 are so much larger than the initial event, so it dont matter very much exactly HOW it got started.

[peaky]

Late to the table here and I probably won't post again, but after 9/11 I read a lot of stuff re this topic on different web sites and after looking at video footage, listening to interviews and much other stuff, the one thing that seemed very obvious to me is that the official explanation is a lie and there's certainly something very odd going on. More than that I do not know.

Having read Pilger, Chomsky and particularly for us in the UK, Web of Deceit by Mark Curtis, I am under no illusions that the US government would be prepared to have some involvement in 9/11 if it had a reason to do so. History clearly shows (from the government's own records) its level of complicity in atrocities. The one thing that the mainstream media always works on is the implicit and omnipresent context that our government is ultimately benign in its intentions. It may make errors, mistakes, unwise choices, but never, never does it do anything wilfully vicious, immoral and of course it never lies to its people unlike those infidels from other coutries who are godless, suicidal, blood thirsty and quite frankly simply an 'Axis of Evil (tm)'.

Remember, Bush disbelieves climate change is happening as it doesn't suit US business interests. Tony Blair says that the Airbus A380 is part of the answer to reducing CO2 emissions as it's more efficient than other planes. Blair's top priority is CO2 reduction but we are building new terminals at Heathrow. Why isn't the government acting on what they (as we do) must know of PO? What could be their motivation? To us in the PO camp, ultimately it cannot make sense, yet of course in terms of political acceptability it makes perfect sense. There will be no electricity blackouts. Petrol prices will not rise to $100/barrel. Technology will provide the answer. If we didn't have such an ever increasing number of new diseases then those poor old overworked drugs companies wouldn't have to keep inventing all these new drugs to treat them with. Truth can be a strange and twisted concept.

Try this sometime if you haven't already. Go away to the Big Green Gathering, or a camp or any kind of holiday that takes you right out of society ideally for at least a week. Then on your first day back in the 'normal world' go into a newsagents and just look at the magazines on sale. Then tell me the society in which we live is not insane. When this kind of utter garbage sells to a huge portion of the population, showing such contempt to the human spirit by drowning it in utter trivia and irrelevance to anything worthwhile, then you can obviously lie to the population big time and most will go along with it. If you can get people to believe that the strap line of a celebrity's dress is worth filling the centre pages of a magazine with then I reckon anything is possible.

[dr_doom]

Try this sometime if you haven't already. Go away to the Big Green Gathering, or a camp or any kind of holiday that takes you right out of society ideally for at least a week. Then on your first day back in the 'normal world' go into a newsagents and just look at the magazines on sale. Then tell me the society in which we live is not insane. When this kind of utter garbage sells to a huge portion of the population, showing such contempt to the human spirit by drowning it in utter trivia and irrelevance to anything worthwhile, then you can obviously lie to the population big time and most will go along with it. If you can get people to believe that the strap line of a celebrity's dress is worth filling the centre pages of a magazine with then I reckon anything is possible.

As you say the mainstream media literally controls what the majority of the population sees, hears and thinks. This is the biggest obstacle to getting people to accept 9 11 conspiracy theories, or PO have any credence.

Is it just me that thinks the media's overhyping of bird flu is ridiculous?

[bigjim]

Is it just me that thinks the media's overhyping of bird flu is ridiculous?

Not just you. I think it's ridiculous too. People are demanding vaccines that won't even be effective- how could we make a vaccine to a virus that doesn't yet exist (bird flu- human flu mutant)? Bird flu's been around for years yet it hasn't found a way to get us yet. The gutter press loves these "we're all going to die" stories about killer asteroids and volcanoes and asylum seekers and gypsies coming to get you.

Peaky, I completely agree with you about the media being full of junk about Chantelle's love for Preston (the bloke not the city) and more crap celebrity awards. You only have to pick up a copy of OK or Hello or the Daily Express with another Princess Diana death story to see what a pointless society we've become. However I'd include Pilger under the pointlessness too since he's not exactly sane- I know I've read one of his books!

There's got to be a better direction for the human race. I refuse to believe this is it for us.