A Farm for the Future BBC2

[marknorthfield]

A lot of gardeners seem completely obsessed with neat and tidy gardens and flowers like dahlias and chrysanthemums which don't even attract bees and butterflies. And where have all the trees gone?

Agree entirely. I am gradually persuading my partner that the less 'neat' the garden is, the better; the programme may have been a bit of a turning point. This endless human obsession with straight lines and smooth surfaces... Aghhh!

I guess the thing about trees is people not wanting to upset the neighbours or block out light. That said, there are plenty around here, but not producing anything edible!

[Neily at the peak]

Tim

One of the many ways in which I found the film thought provoking was the bit about nut trees versus wheat. I did a bit of searching and discovered that there is some work being done on perennial wheat at around 70% of standard yield. I need to look a bit further but it certainly looks interesting.


Neil

[biffvernon]

the less 'neat' the garden is, the better;

Phew. Here's a bit of mine:


This picture, taken in late September 2008, shows the crowded exuberence of one of our vegetable areas. You may be able to spot red current, celery, borage, perpetual beet spinach, courgette, beetroot, kohl rabi, red cabbage, egremont russet apple, fennel, marjoram, budleia, carrot, rocket, parsley, cauliflower, land-cress, mint, marigold, thyme, nasturtium.

[marknorthfield]

Phew. Here's a bit of mine:

Wow!

Those russets look good even without too much height involved; is that a number of trees or just the one which has been persuaded to grow sideways?

[SunnyJim]

Another of my farming heros is Simon Fairlie who runs the Scythe Shop in South Petherton. He also helps out and founded "The Land Is Ours" and "Chapter 7" which are dealing with the important issues of protecting the countryside from developers, while allowing people to move back to the land. They produce the Land magazine.

And for a bit of inspiration for those who still want their daily bread, check out Kai Vido and her scythe!

[biffvernon]

Two russets, a tall and a short. They were the same size when I planted them.

[contadino]

Guys permaculture isn't complicated.

All you need to know is which plants are shade bearing or shade tolerant and a little about soils and climate (just like your garden; finding the right crops for the right area)

If I ever finally buy a small patch of land I will follow the permaculture principles exactly.

I would grow non-dwarf hardy apple varieties and grafted hybrid sweet chesnuts as the main crops. In openings I would plant grafted hazel bushes, wild raspberrys and wild strawberries and possibly allow a section to turn into brambles- the most hardy and productive fruit crop of all.

TBH IMO, I think modern agriculture is far harder. what with knowing the exact time and amount of fertilizer/pesticide/herbicide/fungicide to apply, and battling through the variable input costs, and time and effort with the constant fight against nature. A forest garden takes care of its self.

Hmmm....I think that's rather over-simplifying permaculture a lot. IME, you have to know a huge amount about soil, pests and climate, and be able to source the right plants for the right spot. Ironically, this last item has been the most challenging for me.

However, I do agree that modern agriculture is just as difficult. Understanding the complex web of chemicals to use to get the best from plants is actually making the job of growing more difficult. In a rich, active soil, much of the web is dealt with by nature, but if you batter the hell out of the soil so that it becomes nothing more than a poor sponge for water, you have so many more problems.

OK. I just watched the programme. It had some good bits, but jumped to some massive, unsubstantiated conclusions.

Firstly, it backed up what I said above. The guy who'd been searching since the end of WWII until 2005 for the right mix of grasses for his land before finding a solution shows just how complicated permaculture is. And the admission by the presenter that as her soil is different, she'd have to go through the same time-consuming, experimental process herself proves my point.

Secondly, blaming soil deterioration on ploughing is nonsense. The largest single factor that depletes soil of life is weedkiller/pesticides. Second is the chemical imbalance from fertiliser. Ploughing comes way down the list IME.

Thirdly, the reason we now see tractors of 400hp is due to this very reason. It takes more energy to plough a field of poor soil than it does good, healthy soil. This is explained very well in The Great Food Gamble by John Humphrys.

The statement that a gardener is 4 times as productive as a farmer per sqm was great to see.

Personally, I'm probably even more sceptical of permaculture now that I've seen this programme. I'd love to know how many permaculture projects have failed. My guess is that the number would dwarf the successes.

It is not the only available solution, by a long way, which is what the show implies. A simple return to sensible organic farming (and I use the term as it is intended, rather than the bastardised sense that the SA has warped it into) is in my mind, a far more realistic approach to the looming problems. My land gives testament to my views.

[JohnB]

Wow! Thanks to SunnyJim lending me his computer, I've just watched it on iPlayer. Nothing much I didn't know, but I'm inspired now .

The big thing about permaculture isn't forest gardens, or no dig/plough, it's about the design process. It's about observation, and designing a system that's appropriate for the location and the people there. Then monitoring the results, modifying designs and implementing the changes. So if it's done properly, a permaculture system shouldn't fail. The really hard bit is the different way of thinking (or learning to think at all), and not doing something just because it's what everyone else does, or because it's always been done that way.

Unfortunately, there aren't that many truly permaculture based systems in this country, partly because it's very difficult to establish them within a system that is obsessed by growth and BAU. So much is still at the research stage.

And I still need it on DVD. There are people who need to see it!

[contadino]

So permaculture is about planning and design, against a backdrop of hundreds of unknown conditions (soil, climate, aspect, biodiversity, etc..)? And somehow that's meant to be simple and unlikely to fail?!? You're kidding yourself.

Don't get me wrong. Some of the techniques in my permaculture book (Gaia's Garden) tackle specific problems, and they work. Terracing and swathes, to prevent soil erosion and hold water, etc... Great. Biodiversity to encourage balance. Great. The list goes on.

But it's by no means simple. It's by no means the only alternate solution. It's by no means applicable in all circumstances. It's by no means achievable by the vast majority of farmers or gardeners.

[RevdTess]

I actually thought permaculture was about sustainability. Design is just one approach to getting there.

[treaclemine]

Permaculture is about planning and design, yes. Also, observation, and using principles abstracted from ecosystems, and patterns which have worked in other places but modified to your context.

Permaculture principles and design methods are a toolkit which is accessible to everyone.

[Catweazle]

If anyone wants to look at real soil death up-close take a walk to a ploughed field next to woodland. My woods border an ex-farm field and the difference in soil is amazing.

The first thing you notice is that the woodland soil is 4 feet higher than the ploughed field. That's some difference ! Some of that difference could be attributed to the plough gradually dragging soil somewhere else, possibly into a dip somewhere, but it still means that the topsoil has been scraped off, some is probably because the soil has been compacted for years, some due to wind.

The second thing you notice is the colour of the soil. The ploughed field is reddy-brown with a clay texture, the woodland soil is black and looks like the contents of a tomato grow-bag.

The moisture content is way different too, when the field is baked hard as terracotta the woodland soil is moist. Even on the edges where it's exposed to full wind and sunshine you can scrape away an inch of leaf-mould and find moist soil.

It seems clear to me that the difference is organic material, lots of it. Growing crops on chemicals will leave a field made of clay, sterile and dead. If we do one thing for our children, spreading our organic waste on the land should be it.

[SunnyJim]

If anyone wants to look at real soil death up-close take a walk to a ploughed field next to woodland. My woods border an ex-farm field and the difference in soil is amazing.

The first thing you notice is that the woodland soil is 4 feet higher than the ploughed field. That's some difference ! Some of that difference could be attributed to the plough gradually dragging soil somewhere else, possibly into a dip somewhere, but it still means that the topsoil has been scraped off, some is probably because the soil has been compacted for years, some due to wind.

The second thing you notice is the colour of the soil. The ploughed field is reddy-brown with a clay texture, the woodland soil is black and looks like the contents of a tomato grow-bag.

The moisture content is way different too, when the field is baked hard as terracotta the woodland soil is moist. Even on the edges where it's exposed to full wind and sunshine you can scrape away an inch of leaf-mould and find moist soil.

It seems clear to me that the difference is organic material, lots of it. Growing crops on chemicals will leave a field made of clay, sterile and dead. If we do one thing for our children, spreading our organic waste on the land should be it.

Great post CW. That sums it up for me. Nature knows how to do it best. Watch what it does when left to its own devices and bend it to produce food for you....

Contadino, it's really not as difficult as you make out. It strikes me that the guy with the grass mix was a perfectionist. Most people could imporove pastures simply by adding more diversity in grass species. Of course pasture may not be what the land you have naturally wants to do, in which case, work with where it naturally wants to go!

[careful_eugene]

Just watched the program, excellent, thought provoking and well presented. We could do with more of this on mainstream TV, good luck with the farm Rebecca.

[DominicJ]

Surely to find a good grass mix for your land, you should throw a variety of grass seeds on it and see whats still there in a few years?