Lots of Peeps viewing but few posting.... come on post!

[DominicJ]

AE
And no doubt he "gives" you "gifts" in return.
We calls that selling where I'm from, even if theres no cash involved and no one really keeps tracks of "prices".

[biffvernon]

Maybe some folk are a bit confused between Homo sapiens and Homo neanderthalensis, the species that became extinct.

[alternative-energy]

AE
And no doubt he "gives" you "gifts" in return.
We calls that selling where I'm from, even if theres no cash involved and no one really keeps tracks of "prices".

Another guy in my street gave me a huge sea bass that he had recently caught. A month later I was able to repay with some pork. However, I see what what you mean that these gifts do have a air of expectation but someone must start the transaction from a point of altruism and with the knowledge that they may well receive nothing in return.
That's how you build a community of shared skills and resources and enjoy the people in street where you live.

[biffvernon]

This swapping stuff thing is what David Fleming in Lean Logic describes as 'Reciprocity'. Here's the first paragraph of the five page entry on this topic:

Reciprocity is about the ways in which people act in each others’ interests. It may be conscious, or pleasurable, or permanent, or freely entered-into, or none of these; it exists between nations, between equals, between master and slave. In some forms of reciprocity, it can be hard to distinguish between giving and receiving – as in, for instance, the reciprocity between mother and infant: the baby gets what it needs to live, and in return the mother receives the satisfactions of giving, of love, of making a person. So it comes in many forms. But, within that wide range of meaning, there is one salient property: on the definition of Lean Logic, reciprocity is usually informal – that is, it refers primarily to means of distribution and exchange which work without money.

Get the book for the rest of it
http://leanlogic.net/

Fleming's interest in reciprocity stems from his belief that there will have to be a great deal more of it after the climacteric ushered in by the peak-oil mediated collapse of the global market economy. Now's the time to get into the habit of giving and receiving without money.

[alternative-energy]

This swapping stuff thing is what David Fleming in Lean Logic describes as 'Reciprocity'. Here's the first paragraph of the five page entry on this topic:

Reciprocity is about the ways in which people act in each others’ interests. It may be conscious, or pleasurable, or permanent, or freely entered-into, or none of these; it exists between nations, between equals, between master and slave. In some forms of reciprocity, it can be hard to distinguish between giving and receiving – as in, for instance, the reciprocity between mother and infant: the baby gets what it needs to live, and in return the mother receives the satisfactions of giving, of love, of making a person. So it comes in many forms. But, within that wide range of meaning, there is one salient property: on the definition of Lean Logic, reciprocity is usually informal – that is, it refers primarily to means of distribution and exchange which work without money.

Get the book for the rest of it
http://leanlogic.net/

Do you have to intellectualise everything? Agree Biff we need to get into this habit, life is so much better when we do and it self perpetuates.

Yes, I know what reciprocity means and put together with 3 other Rs
Resilence, Resourcefulness and Reflectiveness makes up the Learning Powers espoused by Guy Claxton which IMO are going to be very important concepts for our society to use in the future.
For now I have read enough books on theory; prefer action now.
edit: Bloody hell it's £30!!

Were you a teacher or something?

[Ludwig]

But Ludwig
Your the one who argues a person must never ever ever be inconvenienced whatever his actions.

??? I don't know who you're thinking of but it's not me.

Whats laughingly billed as world class healthcare, education and dole is a sacred right available to all no matter how lazy, disruptive or selfish.
Dont want to get up in the morning?
**** it, be unemployed, the evil bankers are to blame anyway.

I work a 50 hour week on a quiet week, and shovel my next door neighbours drive when it snows, but I'm selfish, whereas the bloke across the road who's never worked 50 hours (legaly) is a paragon of virtue with a new Ford Focus ST he somehow affords on benefits.

Be the change you want to see in the world.
That means get off your arse and do something, not sit on your arse and demand a new tax is levied to fund your pet project.

Usually Tory rant. "If you're unemployed, it's your own fault, and I bet you've got a £20K car on credit as well." Home in a the most extreme case you can think of and portray it as representative.

And as usual you're putting words into my mouth.

I've had this debate endlessly with Beria and I'm bored of it now. You are making it into an argument about benefits, whereas I'm talking about general social attitudes.

[emordnilap]

Dmitry Orlov, not a shallow thinker, makes a distinction between a gift system and a barter system. There is no doubt an overlap, just as there is with a money system, but I know what he means.

[Kieran]

I agree Biff. I've been accused a couple of times recently of being judgmental, and I won't deny this, but it really bothers me that so few people are standing up and saying, "This isn't right, this isn't the way to behave." Numerous foreigners I've met have been shocked at how selfish and materialistic a place Britain is, and a generation has now grown up here that doesn't realise things could be any other way. Indeed the attitude of an increasing number of posters on PS seems to be: "human nature is fundamentally selfish, and all other behaviour is simply an aberration." This is manifestly untrue; human nature is far more complex than that, as any look at history shows. But the roots of Thatcherism go so deep here now that, for many people, a society in which kindness and fairness are valued, is not just undesirable but unimaginable.

If the survivors of social collapse are the least moral, which in general perhaps they are, that bodes ill for the chances of reconstructing a new society in its wake. If competition between individuals and groups were all there was to human nature, civilisation would never have emerged.

It's not that I think societal collapse stands much chance of being averted, but I'm not going to join the ranks of the moral shoulder-shruggers who slip alarmingly easily into the attitude of "If you can't beat them, join them."

+1



@DominicJ
Try soaking your kidney beans longer before boiling them. It is tricky to get the timing right, trial and error really. If they turn out too mushy you can always throw them in a curry or something. Better too soft than too hard.

[DominicJ]

Soaked overnight, water changed three times.
Next time I'm going to soak them, then boil thyem until soft, then add them to whatever I'm eating.

[alternative-energy]

Soaked overnight, water changed three times.
Next time I'm going to soak them, then boil thyem until soft, then add them to whatever I'm eating.

Or why not kidney bean wine? No, perhaps not!

[DominicJ]

I have a receipe, but I think it needs them to be soaked and such first, which is the bit I'm struggling with.

[kenneal - lagger]

Ludwig, will you please stop trying to pin all this selfishness on Maggie Thatcher. I've told you before it all started with the Trade Unions in the fifties and sixties when they tried to maintain and destroy pay differentials between workers and supervisors. Read your recent history, please.

There are many people on this thread who are trying to get the message out to a wider community. many of us are involved with Transition Towns and Greening Campaigns for instance. John Boshier and I are trying to push the Eco Hamlet concept; trying to form new communities. Just posting on this forum helps get the word out. People who just drop in, then lurk and either go away with some knowledge or start posting themselves are people who have had their lives improved.

There are people who have reduced their consumption drastically, who you are accusing of selfishness. As Em said, yes there is a degree of selfishness in that they are saving themselves money. The main point is that they are trying to live within their ecological limit. Only the most warped of perspectives can put that aim in the same bracket as selfishness. They are showing others how they will have to live in the future and they are doing it when they don't have to. Em could be living the high life just as most others are doing but he has a social conscience so he lives as he thinks he should.

People who come to this forum to disrupt it or come here and are doing absolutely nothing themselves are the ones who should be pilloried. If you come into that category only you will know. It is possible to do something positive whatever your circumstances but it is probably easier to sit on your arse.

[emordnilap]

Good post kenneal. We're never going to agree over Thatcher of course but my view is that all excesses that adversely affect others should be reined in somehow and, whatever the unions got up to, Thatcher went too far in the opposite direction. Too much power is a Bad Thing (a truism for the oil age if ever there was one).

The three Rs. Regulation, rights and responsibilities.

[Lord Beria3]

Good post kenneal. We're never going to agree over Thatcher of course but my view is that all excesses that adversely affect others should be reined in somehow and, whatever the unions got up to, Thatcher went too far in the opposite direction. Too much power is a Bad Thing (a truism for the oil age if ever there was one).

The three Rs. Regulation, rights and responsibilities.

This is something I can broadly agree with.

Some good general points here.

[biffvernon]

Do you have to intellectualise everything?...Bloody hell it's £30!!

The intellectual bit was Fleming's words not mine! £30 for a hardback is not so very much when you consider it's 736 pages and 385000 words and some rather nice woodcut prints.