Euro elections, 4th June

[DominicJ]

NO2EU is a party started by a trade union, couldnt care less where you are, thats big state save me.

[caspian]

Your argument seems to be that our system couldn't possibly be worse, in which case you really should learn about what goes on in most of the developing world, or Russia, or Italy, or indeed America.

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. Of course our system could be worse, and only a fool would say otherwise. However, that doesn't mean I have to play an active part of it.

As I said previously, by voting I would be effectively condoning the political system and giving encouragement to the very people I despise. If in the unlikely event that it was a close tie between Tories and BNP in my consituency, I would still withhold my vote. I would be appalled if the BNP won, but that can only be blamed on those who voted for them, and not for those who abstained. Otherwise you end up with a situation like the US presidential election in 2000 where Nader voters were unjustly accused of allowing George Bush in by not voting for Al Gore.

[biffvernon]

NO2EU is a party started by a trade union, couldnt care less where you are, thats big state save me.

Which still leaves the half dozen to the right like wot I said.

[gug]

Whoever you vote for, Watch this video of Václav Klaus, the czech president address the EU.

Read/listen to what he's saying and then try not to weep as you see the reaction of some of the MEPs who turned out to listent to him.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljAANHPkrAE

[2 As and a B]

Klaus seems to have much the same position as UKIP. However, give each free rein and I reckon they would be into a resource war within ten years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odgk1zywkJA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A1cla ... al_warming

[AndySir]

What in the MEP's reaction to President Klaus would cause one to weep? Some clapped, some booed, some walked out - looked like pretty much any parliament on this planet. Except Italy. Somebody would have lamped him if it had been in Italy.

[2 As and a B]

Which block(s) walked out?

[gug]

What in the MEP's reaction to President Klaus would cause one to weep? Some clapped, some booed, some walked out - looked like pretty much any parliament on this planet. Except Italy. Somebody would have lamped him if it had been in Italy.

if you're happy that representitives of europe shoud be so offended that they would boo, jeer and walk out when someone is talking about the need to be more democratic and accountable then it speaks volumes about your expectations of a democratic europe. I dont wish to get into a protracted argument about this, the implications are obvious.

[gug]

Klaus seems to have much the same position as UKIP. However, give each free rein and I reckon they would be into a resource war within ten years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odgk1zywkJA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A1cla ... al_warming

The speech in question had nothing to do with the climate or climate policy (as far as i can tell, i dont speak czech so i'm reliant on the translation provided which is claimed to be from official transcripts). The delegates turned up to listen to this guy, listened politely until he started to talk about "democracy" and then decided to jeer and walk out. Even if his other major beliefs included the integration of fairies into his garden shed it is, for the purposes of that video, irrelevent (unless someone can show me that this translation is wrong).

I wasn't of course allowing for the powerswitch "bipolar world view" though.



I mean, considering that this thread is about european politcs rather than GW, CC, peak oil etc, we can all quote wikipedia where it helps.

Another incident happened on December 5, 2008. Members of the Conference of Presidents of the European Parliament visited the Czech Republic prior to the start of the Czech presidency of the European Union, and met Václav Klaus at Prague Castle. Daniel Cohn-Bendit, chairman of Green Group, brought a European flag and presented it to Klaus.[15] Cohn-Bendit also said that he did not care about Klaus' opinions on the Treaty of Lisbon, that Klaus would simply have to sign it (although, under Czech law, the President is not obliged to follow the resolution of Parliament). Further, Brian Crowley told Klaus that the Irish wanted ratification of the Treaty of Lisbon and were insulted by Klaus' association with Declan Ganley and the lobby group Libertas. Klaus responded that "the biggest insult to the Irish people is not to accept the result of the referendum".[16] Crowley replied, "You will not tell me what the Irish think. As an Irishman, I know it best."[16] This visit was criticized by some in the media: "This bizarre confrontation...confirms the inability of the Euro-elite to accept that anyone holds different views from their own."[15]

[2 As and a B]

I wasn't of course allowing for the powerswitch "bipolar world view" though.

What is that then? You keep ascribing simplistic opinions to me that I have neither expressed and do not hold. I for one don't subscribe to "my enemy's enemy is my friend". My enemies are enemies - all of them - the undemocratic, remote and aloof EU and the freemarket environment rapers.

As I wrote before, which block(s) walked out? Those are one set of enemies. Who stayed? Well the block that UKIP is in for one for sure - another set of enemies - but there seemed to be more than them remaining. Did the Greens stay to listen and applaud?

[gug]

I wasn't of course allowing for the powerswitch "bipolar world view" though.

What is that then? You keep ascribing simplistic opinions to me that I have neither expressed and do not hold. I for one don't subscribe to "my enemy's enemy is my friend". My enemies are enemies - all of them - the undemocratic, remote and aloof EU and the freemarket environment rapers.

As I wrote before, which block(s) walked out? Those are one set of enemies. Who stayed? Well the block that UKIP is in for one for sure - another set of enemies - but there seemed to be more than them remaining. Did the Greens stay to listen and applaud?

That was a mistake. My "powerswitch bipolar view" comment wasnt aimed directly at you, i concede with hindsight it appears to be. That was an unintentional mistake and I apologise for the misunderstanding.

I dont know which block walked out. Its equally abhorrent to me if the Ukip block walked out. I havent seen any "independence" politicians behave like that. What I'm complaining about is that there appear to be factions of the european project that arent in the slightest bit interested in democracy at all - whoever the feck they are.

This isnt about green/red/left/right, just about democracy and its apparent irrelevance to the european parliament.

(note: not aimed at you foodinistar)
Supporting an undemocratic and seemingly rapidly becoming totalitarian system is fantastic whilst they superficially appear to be in agreement with you (one/us/whoever). The trouble happens when you start not to agree. That is my only and overriding concern with the EU.

if any of the above can be construed as a controversial or misplaced fear then I really am on the wrong board !

[gug]

Daniel Hannan on EU democracy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nto5HsnXsro

I cant find the other video at the moment where he contrasts the EU's encouragement of MEPs to fly the tibetan flag in support of a free tibet with the tearing down and grabbing of placards held up by MEPs with the word "referendum" written on it at the "lisbon treaty" ceremony.



Edit: here it is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRAhRY0qOSg

[goslow]

Greens would agree with some of the eurosceptic view. Like anti-centralist, anti-euro etc. So I bet they were either listening politely or applauding. Anyone who is so offended they would walk out of a speech by a visiting head of state is not worthy to be in public life.

[2 As and a B]

I agree goslow.

Can we agree folks that there are at least three stances, with shades in between, particularly on specific issues*?

- unquestioningly pro-EU
- unquestioningly anti-EU
- valuing the EU but wanting reform to make it more democratic, more responsive, more accountable

I think the Greens fall into that last category, as do I.

* A fisherman from the west country on the radio this morning was saying that UKIP had voted to allow foreign fishing in UK waters - clearly industry's interests are more important to them than UK self-determination.

[gug]

I agree goslow.

Can we agree folks that there are at least three stances, with shades in between, particularly on specific issues*?

- unquestioningly pro-EU
- unquestioningly anti-EU
- valuing the EU but wanting reform to make it more democratic, more responsive, more accountable

I think the Greens fall into that last category, as do I.

Me too.
And what are the [insert your political party of choice here] *actually* doing about it.
After 17 years, apparently bugger all. In fact, when you look into what is actually happening, they appear to be supporting the situation that would make it much harder to reform and give the EU much more unchecked (by the electorate) (it *is* supposed to be about us, right ?) power.

UKip arent anti-europe either (if i'm forced to defend ukip -im not partisan, Dan Hannan is looking better and better), nor do any of the other independence parties appear to be "anti" europe.
(but we are acceptably definitely not bi-polar on this issue as we all accept that nothing is actually just as black and white as pro/anti europe)
I would argue that you can split your third category into many many subcategories of action(all the way from... Yeah, yeah, Manuel Barroso was a maoist - but he's changed we're all good guys here (thanks for the 14k a month) - all the way up to WE DEMAND DEMOCRACY.

* A fisherman from the west country on the radio this morning was saying that UKIP had voted to allow foreign fishing in UK waters - clearly industry's interests are more important to them than UK self-determination.

Which rather blows out the water the assertion that UKip are a bunch of nationalistic little englanders hell bent on voting down everything that comes before them then (irrespective of whether their policy on this is right or wrong).

(i'm not sure whether i'm agreeing or disagreeing with your reason for posting that, just pointing out what it appears to indicate ( the "clearly industry's interests" part appears to slant the argument one way, but I might have misread it)