Supermarket self service checkouts.

[SleeperService]

Hmmm.....
I suggest you both calm down a bit.

A job is only real if it provides a living. Paying say £4.00 an hour doesn't allow somebody to 'live' therefore it's not really a job as other income would be needed to make up a living wage. That could come from other higher paying work the jobholder does, in which case the other employer is effectively supporting your £4.00 an hour. Or it can come from the government (i.e. out of my{and others} tax payments) rather than being used for the public good.

The problem with a minimum wage is that it quickly becomes the benchmark that unethical employers move down to. On the other hand those same employers demand an ever greater portion of the wages pot. That's why the directors of many (failing) UK companies give each other 49% pay increases and the people who generate the wealth get 2.5%.

These aren't people starting up a new business but grey people maintaining companies (badly) rather than building them. That's also why the FTSE has stagnated, no growth means more of the profits are diverted into dividends.

[extractorfan]

You could argue that we're forcing Dom to show his true colours, but he's shown them clearly enough already, and anyone who hasn't drawn their own conclusions must be an idiot.

What conclusion though. There are too many people and a shrinking in value money supply. We can't borrow from the future when the future is going to be poorer than the past. It really is going to be either a look out for yourself world or a dictatorship that tells you what you have to work towards.

You don't have to like it but i know which I would prefer. There are always going to be 3 classes. Landed elite, traders and workers.

It's easier to just accept something that you can't change.

[Ludwig]

You could argue that we're forcing Dom to show his true colours, but he's shown them clearly enough already, and anyone who hasn't drawn their own conclusions must be an idiot.

What conclusion though. There are too many people and a shrinking in value money supply. We can't borrow from the future when the future is going to be poorer than the past. It really is going to be either a look out for yourself world or a dictatorship that tells you what you have to work towards.

You don't have to like it but i know which I would prefer. There are always going to be 3 classes. Landed elite, traders and workers.

It's easier to just accept something that you can't change.

Are you so very sure that you won't ever be one of the unemployed people that Dom thinks should be left to die? Say if unemployment reaches 70-80%? Remember, according to him, it will be your fault and you will deserve everything you get.

Please note that I am not actually objecting in principle to Dom's individualism. I don't like it, but it makes logical sense in a resource-strapped world.

What I find repugnant is his arrogance, his constant tone of superiority, his clear belief that those who have more are better than those who have less.

I don't like Jonny2Mad's attitude either, but at least he doesn't try to justify it on the basis of personal superiority and dessert.

[Lord Beria3]

You could argue that we're forcing Dom to show his true colours, but he's shown them clearly enough already, and anyone who hasn't drawn their own conclusions must be an idiot.

What conclusion though. There are too many people and a shrinking in value money supply. We can't borrow from the future when the future is going to be poorer than the past. It really is going to be either a look out for yourself world or a dictatorship that tells you what you have to work towards.

You don't have to like it but i know which I would prefer. There are always going to be 3 classes. Landed elite, traders and workers.

It's easier to just accept something that you can't change.

+1

Yup... the capitalist system - in its current form - is collapsing. Just watch the news! Channel 4 News tonight was headed by the Greek crisis, hyperinflation and even a military coup.

This is our future.

Now regarding the bitter personal row between Dom and Ludwig, it strikes me that it comes down to the point of tone. This is purely a matter of personal subjectivity on the part of Ludwig and therefore absolutely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

The reality is that due to Peak Oil and the impending bankruptsy of virtually every major bank and country in the developed world, the welfare state will be dismantled, inflation will wipe out the middle classes, and the world will go back to its pre-WW1/WW2 era of a super rich elite, a struggling middle classes and a mass of poor people at the bottom.

If you wonder what it might look like, I suggest you watch Downton Abbey!

Now, as this process, in the Uk as much as everywhere, is going to involve the distribution of wealth in a shrinking pie, the politics will become ever more nasty.

How much should the rich be taxed in the future?

How will our budgets be balanced when the markets stop buying UK gilts and a massive black hole occurs in our government accounts? Massively hike taxes for the wealthly and property owning middle classes? Slash benefits for the poorer people? Massively print money to keep the party rolling for a bit longer - but risk hyperinflationary collapse down the line?

None of these questions are easy, but one thing is for certain. The loathing and anger typified by Ludwig towards the thirty per cent of the population who always vote Tory will only ensure that social cohesion will continue to collapse in the UK.

[cubes]

A job is only real if it provides a living. Paying say £4.00 an hour doesn't allow somebody to 'live' therefore it's not really a job as other income would be needed to make up a living wage.

If people had to I'm pretty sure they would 'live' on £4 per hour. It wouldn't be in any way, shape or form pleasant (esp. if you're not single) but it would be possible.

[extractorfan]

Are you so very sure that you won't ever be one of the unemployed people that Dom thinks should be left to die? Say if unemployment reaches 70-80%? Remember, according to him, it will be your fault and you will deserve everything you get.

Not sure at all, there but for the grace of dog and all that. society will think (not Dom on his own) that its my fault and there won't be money there to support me, I might have to work for £4 per hour, but I'll try to live on £3 per hour and use the extra £1 as best I can to better my situation.

I read somewhere that in the great depression there was something like 1/3 unemployed, so if the chances of me being one of them are 33%, or even 50% I do fancy my chances, so long as I have my health.

I suggest you watch Downton Abbey

Perhaps I will.

[the_lyniezian]

A job is only real if it provides a living. Paying say £4.00 an hour doesn't allow somebody to 'live' therefore it's not really a job as other income would be needed to make up a living wage.

If people had to I'm pretty sure they would 'live' on £4 per hour. It wouldn't be in any way, shape or form pleasant (esp. if you're not single) but it would be possible.

Not so certain.

I worked out if one was to work for £4/hour for just 20 hours a week, one would be earning more per week than I personally would get on JSA.

But then that's fine for me, as I at least have some savings left and a rather too generous family. You can't even pay rent, basic utilities and Council Tax on £80 per week, though might just about manage on £160/week (£4/hr over 40 hours) but barely.

One might suppose if wages dropped, prices might just drop (slightly) as well?

[extractorfan]

One might suppose if wages dropped, prices might just drop (slightly) as well?

They certainly would. Would you rahter have your property/investment earning £0 per month or £80 per month? or £50 or whatever.

You accept what people can afford to pay. (I'm not a landlord, but know one well).

[extractorfan]

here's another way to reduce staffing costs

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/7654267.stm

Payments in soya beans eh???

No employers NI on beans as far as I know

[PS_RalphW]

Right now, in Cambridge, landlords are doing very nicely, thank you. Rental rates have never been higher. We prefer long term tenants (once we find ones that look after the house) so we do not charge top rates to discourage them looking elsewhere, but finding good quality tenants is easy right now. There are still jobs in Cambridge, and not enough houses, and the roads in have never been more congested.

Supply and demand. I don't expect it to last.

[frank_begbie]

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

[the_lyniezian]

here's another way to reduce staffing costs

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/7654267.stm

Payments in soya beans eh???

No employers NI on beans as far as I know

It's fine if you're doing a job even a monkey could do...

...but I doubt that would include checkouts.

[Ludwig]

One might suppose if wages dropped, prices might just drop (slightly) as well?

No, because costs are going up. Peak oil means it's more expensive to make stuff, grow stuff, and transport stuff.

[extractorfan]

Not all costs will go up. I bought some oxtail the other week and it was 3.60 for 2 bits, very expensive because there's no demand. Short term there will be such a demand for cheap meat that more of this sort of cut will be available and it will be cheaper (at first).

Lamb shank and Rabbit are also over priced as they have become trendy meats.

[frank_begbie]

I wonder what would happen if one Supermarket bucked the trend and stayed with people on check outs?

Would they get most customers because people liked the human touch, or would the shareholders demand they follow the leader?