Lots of Peeps viewing but few posting.... come on post!

[Bandidoz]

Guys can we be a little less judgemental, please...

[Catweazle]

Catweazle, the fact that you changed your politics so readily makes me wonder how sincere your previous beliefs really were, and frankly whether you were just holding them to fit in.

Fit in with what ? I've written that I wasl labelled a tree-hugging leftie do-gooder.

I was left-of-centre when I was 16 and still am at 42. My basic ideals haven't changed at all - though my view of how realistic they are inevitably has.

That just makes you a slow learner.

Of course, having a family changes most people's perspectives. I have no children, but if I did, I am pretty sure that any capitulation to the ethos of dog-eat-dog on my part would be reluctant. Violence breeds violence, those who live by the sword die by the sword etc...

You have no idea. Of course it would be reluctant. Those who have no sword die by the sword.

Of course, in adversity one always puts family and friends first... But through most of history there was a level beyond this, that of community. Community is very useful, but unfortunately, once dead it cannot be revived. And looking at previous collapsed civilisations, there is no sign that people formed communities; it really was a free-for-all. Unlike you, I don't look forward to such a situation.

You don't look forward to anything, I don't look forward to anarchy.

In summary: yes, you do sound like a horrible bastard.

Don't come knocking when you're hungry.

[snow hope]

LOL some good posts worthy of high point scoring!

Lots of intelligenet people posting their opinions and rebuttals - quite funny to read and watch.

But maybe this is not the way to get non-posting members to post??

We can all get involved in petty point scoring, but what is most important is the analysis and practical ideas of what we can do to mitigate what we see coming.

Like many others I go to the Preps forum first - always. I agree with others that we should reduce the number of forums and try to stay on topic a bit more, ie how we deal with the declining oil situation and its impacts upon our way of life and indeed the current civilisation.

Is this not enough to get to grips with? Although there are a few people on the forums who I find myself wanting to counter, I still respect their opinions even though it appears (sometimes) they do not respect mine.

This is where the line should be drawn in my opinion. We need to be less accepting of folks who show disrespect from whatever side of the divide it may come from. I imagine this is true for many fora.

[kenneal - lagger]

In the spirit of this thread, if you don't want to read a rant please ignore this post. I wouldn't want to scare anyone with a nervous disposition.

Not surprisingly, Catweazle, I'm on your side. The greatest failing of socialism is the reliance upon the state to supply everything that it instils in people. That is not to say that the welfare state is a bad thing: as a safety net it is essential. But only as a safety net. Too many people have come to believe that the state will provide them with all they need at no effort from anyone, least of all themselves.

When the SHTF they will realise very quickly that socialism can't look after them in every circumstance, especially not in extreme adversity, just when you need it most. They will find that socialism is a bit like a bank: it gives you an umbrella when it's dry but asks for it back when it's raining. A bit of good old Tory self reliance, responsibility and self sufficiency is necessary in adversity: all the things that socialism takes away. That self reliance, responsibility and self sufficiency can and must extend to communities because no one is an island. We need such a wide range of skills to survive that a family on its own couldn't make it. There is also safety in numbers.

When you have worked hard to set yourself and your family up your attitudes to those who would rather sit at home and watch the TV or go out to the pub and drink and smoke their time away changes slightly. We get a bit p***ed off when people tell us we are lucky to have what we have because we know the hard work and sacrifice we have made to get what we have now.

My children grew up in a mobile home in a field without a TV let alone computer games. They woke up in the morning with frost on the window and had to boil a kettle for hot water to wash. And I'm not looking for sympathy because we did what we did voluntarily, well my wife and I did. I will soon, I hope, be able to give my children a plot each to build a house on. Who is going to say that they don't deserve that; that they haven't worked for that or that they are lucky to have rich parents? My kids have done everything that my wife and I have to deserve a house of their own.

Are we greedy capitalists for making sacrifices to get what we want? Have we deprived anyone of anything to get what we have? There are many other people who have worked hard in different ways for what they have and I doubt that most of them have anything to be ashamed of in the way that they've grown their businesses.

Yes there are a large number of large businesses that are screwing the nation but they are the businesses that are favoured by the bureaucracy, and the socialist bureaucracy just as much, and are allowed to get away with things. They are the businesses that are too big to fail and have been propped up by Labour governments even more than Tory ones. Judging by the comments of our ever present socialist contingent here they would continue to be propped up in the form of nationalisation. Despite the fact that we've been there, done that and got the very ragged t shirt to show for it. Some people never learn.

Rant over!!!

[Keela]

Great rant kenneal!

[extractorfan]

and that little exchange between ludwig and catweazle is one of the reasons I like this place.

there's nothing wrong bickering, it's a relief from the constant preping or analysing.

[DominicJ]

Even now, with the world economy in freefall, you insist that capitalism is the way forward!

Any you insist we live in a capitalist world, despite it being explained to you hundreds of times, we live in a corporitist world, which is very different.

But its much easier to create strawmen, assign them to other people, and knock them down isnt it.....

[DominicJ]

Are you? First I've heard about it!

Cards on the table then.
What have you actualy done?

Beyond spouting off on a forum?

[Ludwig]

Are you? First I've heard about it!

Cards on the table then.
What have you actualy done?

Beyond spouting off on a forum?

I wasn't talking about me, I was referring to other people here.

Anyhow, how is this an issue of ethics or principle? Nobody here AFAIK is making preps for anyone other than themselves, families and friends.

[emordnilap]

Nobody here AFAIK is making preps for anyone other than themselves, families and friends.

This is true in a narrow sense, Ludwig - I'm not cutting fossil fuel use for neighbours' direct benefit, for instance (though it does benefit them in several tiny ways). But we're trying to live as frugally as we can partially because - yes, I admit it's better for us personally as well - we realise we have had more than our fair share of resources all our lives and, even now, continue to do so.

So yes, we're not 'making preps' for others - but that does give the impression that it's 100% selfish, which it isn't.

OK, I'll get called holier-than-thou or be accused of guilt-tripping, hair-shirting or whatever but I like to think of it as an example of what could, actually should happen and, as intimated on another thread, some motivations are hard to justify in words; words were never my strong point.

[biffvernon]

OK, I'll get called holier-than-thou or be accused of guilt-tripping, hair-shirting or whatever but I like to think of it as an example of what could, actually should happen and, as intimated on another thread, some motivations are hard to justify in words;

+1

You know you're winning when someone 'accuses' you of being holier-than-thou. We should all be striving to be holier than the rest. The accusers are the selfish sods who don't care about people they'll never meet or haven't even been born yet.

All this right/left argumenting is so last century. Can't people see that both have been tried and both have failed and left the planet in a mess? Time to search for a new dimension of travel.

[DominicJ]

I wasn't talking about me, I was referring to other people here.

Anyhow, how is this an issue of ethics or principle? Nobody here AFAIK is making preps for anyone other than themselves, families and friends.

I didnt claim to be the best "prepper", I said I was near the top of the class, I stand by that.

Principle?
Well, I would say the principle would be "putting your money where your mouth is", anyone can sit in their arm chair giving orders.

I may be cantankerous, but I also bring real world experience of sloppy loft insulation, chicken keeping, the potential pitfalls of cooking dried kidney beans (which is bloody hard, leaving them bloody hard frequently!) and tonight I'll be starting on my journey of turning sugar, yeast and flavourings into fall down juice, otherwise known as "preserving windfalls".

I have no intention of giving anyone eggs, or chickens, but I'm available for advice in several matters.
I did advertise this in my signiture, but people rather than thinking, I could use a bit of help on that matter, took the piss, so I removed it.

But as I said

Or maybe the rest just dont keep us updated?

Maybe there is a fountain of knowledge on here, but its just not easily available.

[Ludwig]

OK, I'll get called holier-than-thou or be accused of guilt-tripping, hair-shirting or whatever but I like to think of it as an example of what could, actually should happen and, as intimated on another thread, some motivations are hard to justify in words;

+1

You know you're winning when someone 'accuses' you of being holier-than-thou. We should all be striving to be holier than the rest. The accusers are the selfish sods who don't care about people they'll never meet or haven't even been born yet.

I agree Biff. I've been accused a couple of times recently of being judgmental, and I won't deny this, but it really bothers me that so few people are standing up and saying, "This isn't right, this isn't the way to behave." Numerous foreigners I've met have been shocked at how selfish and materialistic a place Britain is, and a generation has now grown up here that doesn't realise things could be any other way. Indeed the attitude of an increasing number of posters on PS seems to be: "human nature is fundamentally selfish, and all other behaviour is simply an aberration." This is manifestly untrue; human nature is far more complex than that, as any look at history shows. But the roots of Thatcherism go so deep here now that, for many people, a society in which kindness and fairness are valued, is not just undesirable but unimaginable.

If the survivors of social collapse are the least moral, which in general perhaps they are, that bodes ill for the chances of reconstructing a new society in its wake. If competition between individuals and groups were all there was to human nature, civilisation would never have emerged.

It's not that I think societal collapse stands much chance of being averted, but I'm not going to join the ranks of the moral shoulder-shruggers who slip alarmingly easily into the attitude of "If you can't beat them, join them."

[alternative-energy]

I have no intention of giving anyone eggs, or chickens, but I'm available for advice in several matters.

I have given my neighbour a few chickens, surplus plants etc, he is a very good mechanic - I'm not. I'm happy with that!

[DominicJ]

But Ludwig
Your the one who argues a person must never ever ever be inconvenienced whatever his actions.
Whats laughingly billed as world class healthcare, education and dole is a sacred right available to all no matter how lazy, disruptive or selfish.
Dont want to get up in the morning?
**** it, be unemployed, the evil bankers are to blame anyway.

I work a 50 hour week on a quiet week, and shovel my next door neighbours drive when it snows, but I'm selfish, whereas the bloke across the road who's never worked 50 hours (legaly) is a paragon of virtue with a new Ford Focus ST he somehow affords on benefits.

Be the change you want to see in the world.
That means get off your arse and do something, not sit on your arse and demand a new tax is levied to fund your pet project.