The Iranian Euro Bourse

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fishertrop
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Post by fishertrop »

Bozzio wrote: Someone explain to the author of this article what it means to trade in dollars please. He might understand the situation then.

He can trade all he likes in Euros and the US won't care a jot. If China were to start trading in Euros on the other hand then the dollar might just lose its status as top reserve currency and that will be something the US will fight for.

There's aways someone who compares arguments like this with conspiracy theories. God they're boring.
Easy tiger!

I don't always agree with the author, but he does seem to have his head generally screwed on right, unlike most regular economists.

I'm not saying I endorse his view on the IOB, only that pays to hear some (fairly...) informed counter-opinion on such issues. This being the rarest of commodities in the PO world.....
Bozzio
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Post by Bozzio »

fischertrop wrote:I'm not saying I endorse his view on the IOB, only that pays to hear some (fairly...) informed counter-opinion on such issues.
I've read a few counter opinions on this idea now.

The fact is the writers of these reports don't expand on their reasoning or explain how the money markets work. If they did, they would have to talk about 'reserve currency'and at that point their argument would fall flat.

Of course, if they can prove that the dollar is not the world's reserve currency I might just listen to them. But since it is, they are wasting my time and yours.

Bloody economists.
fishertrop
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Post by fishertrop »

The IOB is currently a hot topic, TOD are running an interesting thread on this already - http://www.theoildrum.com/story/2006/1/25/19951/8290 - and we've been evolving this thread here for a while.

I still find the argument and counter-argument on this whole issue, whilst sometimes verhment, frustratingly absent of hard fact or even informd opinion (difficult tho that is with such subjects).

I'd like to summarise the position as I see it today and ask people if they have anything specific to support or counter the main bullets.

I'm going to use the following article as a reference, as I find it has more clarity than most others on this subject:
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/ ... 08A6E9.htm

Some numbers:
Approx 85mbd of oil production
If we take a price of 65 dollars/barrel thats rougly 5.5bn dollars/day in crude trade - I know all the oil isn't wti-spot and grades vary in price, but lets use this figure as a working number.

Iran exports approx 4mbd of oil with roughly 1mbd - 2mbd of it coming to Europe, depending on who's numbers you use.

According to the OECD, europe imports approx 10mbd with "33% coming from the persian gulf" (how detailed of them...)

So if the IOB were to go ahead and on day-one all euro-zone oil buyers immediately switched to using this bourse and paying in euros, that would only move 130m dollars/day out of existing trades, roughly 47bn a year out of 2trn dollars/year in total trade. A drop in the ocean.

I think this is where many of the "IOB is a non event" people are coming from.

But to me, that's only an immediate term view.

Iran does a lot of bi-directional trade with europe and I can see it makes economic sense for iran not to need to keep exchanging dollar-euro all the time, with all that the shifting forex markets bring (and long term dollar decline vs the euro).

People have pointed out the various non-end-of-world reasons for the IOB, like the above euro-trade practicalities and thumbing their noses at the US, making themsleves a regional trading hub, stealing trade commissions from the IPE and Nymex etc. And I think these are all valid.

Also of note is that Iran cannot meaningfully trade with the US due to existing sanctions - so any dollars it gets don't fit into that "you can always buy US assets with them" petroldollar cycle.

Iran isn't nesseccarily JUST making the IOB in order to (as it might see it) purpetuate US economic collaspe - there are a number of possible benefits if it can make the bourse a success.

Before we look longer term, lets just summise how global currency markets works - currency exchange rates at set by myrid institutions based on collective free-market perceptions (for floating currencies at least...) of one currency's value against another - supply and demand, bless it!

Demand for a currency is based on 2 key factors:
1) Interest rates in the host country
2) Demand for goods or assets in the host country

If a country has high rates (or higher than in some others) you can borrow money, exchange it, put it in a bank in the high-rate country and turn a profit.

If you want goods etc that a country sells and they want payment in a currency, you have to exchange your money into that currency in order to pay for the goods (etc) that you want.

Shifts in demand for a given currency change it's relative exchange rate values.

(a reminder, don't forget this is just my opinion!)

A strategic shift in demand away from a currceny, esp one with a huge volume in circulation, "devalues" that currency - there is more available, people want it less, the exchange rates alter to reflect said currency's "cheapness".

There is no non-dollar oil bourse anywhere in the world, to my knowledge, if the IOB becomes established and over time grows to become reasonably respected (at least within the OPEC countries) and is instrumental in a slow but steady decline in demand for dollars, the US Fed would need to - if it wanted to reduce the dollar's slide - increase domestic interest rates (by how much I don't know) and I feel this could be damaging to the US internal economy, driven as it is by (credit fueled) asset bubbles and the high-spending (credit driven) consumer.

If higher US rates harm the housing market or stock market bubbles, this further reduces demand for those "assets" that would have still generated external demand for dollars - the US doesn't export all that much except financial services, paper bills in various forms and paper assets like shares. It still exports expensive world class weapons, but it rightly limits sales of these to friendly countries but the russians have no such quibbles and their kit is pretty good....

If all of europe's oil imports were paid in euros (obv this would need the likes of russia to accept them) that would add up to about 230bn dollar/year out of the 2trn annual trade, which is starting to look significant. Likely asia has little preference either way for a specific currency but China may have a political handle on it, and it's imports are another approx 10mbd, which would really start to make a difference if paid in euros, buts a big leap for this discussion to make right now...

What numbers are needed to impact dollar exchange rates? I don't know, the total forex trade is worth (some say) 2trn dollars/day - which sounds like it would need a LOT to make an difference, but we know how fickle markets can be, so I'm not so sure the real shifts need to be that great to alter market perceptions.

The net of all this is, in my view, the IOB...:
a) Won't destroy the world in a day
b) Will have limited short term impact
c) Would be well placed to start a trend away from dollar trading, to some extent
d) Long term, any reduction in demand for dollars is bad for the US
e) The US can't halt any dollar slide with nig interest rates kikes because that's too harsh domestically, potentially raising the dollar price for oil (but unchanged in euros), further increasing trade imbalances
f) Since the negative impacts on the US simply go away if we keep with the current status quo, this is an incentive to prevent the IOB starting/taking hold
g) The use of force might be the easist solution
h) This is a long term game - the IOB means next to nothing for the US on day-one (but makes sense for iran in any case) - it's the fear of any trend that reduces demand for dollars that's the long term US worry

Sorry for the million words, it's not a simple subject, now you can all pull it to pieces, esp Totally_baffled.... (cmon man I'm ready for ya!)
snow hope
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Post by snow hope »

Wow - good post FT!

The only response I can give is - I see the next war starting.....
Real money is gold and silver
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Ballard
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Post by Ballard »

Yup, 5000 brave young British men to the boarder ASAP please.
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Totally_Baffled
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Post by Totally_Baffled »

British military commanders are discussing proposals to move as many as 5,000 troops into one of Afghanistan's most lawless drug regions when Britain assumes control of Nato peacekeeping in the country the year after next. Planning is already under way for British forces to replace American troops in the two southern provinces of Kandahar and Helmand in 2006.
Nope. Been planned for a while :wink:

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/is ... ckdown.htm
TB

Peak oil? ahhh smeg..... :(
Bozzio
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Post by Bozzio »

Totally_Baffled wrote:Nope. Been planned for a while
I'm with Ballard on this one and I've replied to TB's post on the other Iranian thread in the News section.

The American government has probably been planning an attack on Iran for a long time now. Several years possibly. I urge all of you to look at this document if you want to learn a little more about the Bush administration's military motives. Quite disturbing, especially as it even dares to mention the possibility of a 'Pearl Harbour' style attack on home soil. This report came out in 2000, one year before 9/11 and I make no apologies for mentioning 9/11 here. (1st paragraph, page 51)

http://www.newamericancentury.org/Rebui ... fenses.pdf
(do not click if you don't have broadband unless you mind waiting)

This from P17
Over the long term, Iran may well prove as large a threat to U.S. interests in the Gulf as Iraq has. And even should U.S.-Iranian relations improve, retaining forward-based forces in the region would still be an essential element in U.S. security strategy given the longstanding
American interests in the region.


To say that this decision was taken a while ago and therefore cannot have any connection with our current situation is a bit naive. Sorry TB but I think it is. Especially in the light of this report. The build up to Iraq is widely accepted to have started even before 9/11 so a few months is nothing in the grand scheme of things.

One has to ask why there will be a 7 fold increase in troops, close to the Iranian border? One also has to ask why the Americans are pulling out? Are they needed else where? If Afghanistan is so bad then why exactly would you pull out so many American troops and if its about drugs then why don't they just burn the poppy fields? A few air raids could do that quite quickly - no troops required.

Please look at the report above. It's quite revealing. Even Michael Meacher thinks so.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story ... 71,00.html

Also you might like to read this from last year. Sorry to give so many links. The article TB posted earlier suggests the troops will be used to control the problems of poppy growing in the area of Helmand but this article claims the region is under control and non-military solutions are viable.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0516/p07s01-wosc.html
"Farmers do not need poppy if the government and the foreign donors will support the traditional cash crops," says Richard Scott, a former USAID agricultural expert who has just finished a six-month project to renovate irrigation canals in Afghanistan's Helmand Province.

Over the past decade, the Helmand valley has become Afghanistan's primary opium growing area, but Mr. Scott says that farmers have no particular fondness for poppies. "The farmers are fairly direct in what they want, and it is not necessarily poppy in Helmand. What they need is a better price for cotton at the government-run cotton gin, so that they can make a living from a legal crop."
I think we are dealing with propaganda here.
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Totally_Baffled
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Post by Totally_Baffled »

Hi Guys.

It me mr argumentative again :)

There is absolutely no way the US or UK will invade Iran. I am quite prepared to run the streets of Southampton naked if it happens! :lol:

Invading Iran will more likely cause the US economy to crash than the IOB (and thats if you believe in the IOB - personally I think its no going to have the effect the doomsday crowd predict - but thats another matter)

Invading Iran will remove 4 mpd from the market.

Thats $100 + oil right there.

If the Straits of Hormuz go up, then thats 32mpd removed from the market.

Thats $500 oil right there.

Politicians want to be re-elected.

If any of the two above oil prices are achieved then its a big fat recession and the end of the US republicans and UK labour party for years.

TPTB know that.

Unless you believe in wild conspiracies - I think the TPTB are stumped on this one and are in stalemate.

I think that we will either see a Russian/Chinese enrichment plan for Irans uranium OR Iran reactors will be bombed.

No way an invasion.

5000 troops + whatever the yanks have pulled out of Iraq wont touch the sides in Iran.
TB

Peak oil? ahhh smeg..... :(
fishertrop
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Post by fishertrop »

Totally_Baffled wrote: There is absolutely no way the US or UK will invade Iran. I am quite prepared to run the streets of Southampton naked if it happens! :lol:
Friday night beer talking? :D

And I'm still waiting for your critique on my IOB massive... 8)

None of us can see inside the heads of the leaders in various countries, so mostly what we do with subjects like this chew the fat and try and make educated guesses as to what will happen or what could happen.

So mostly it's just down to opinion.

I've said many times on this subject that I totally agree with all the negatives to conflict with iran.

The bit that essentially boils down to opinion is weather all these BAD side-effects make any difference.

Totally_B clearly thinks they do, and I wish he was in charge because I get the strong impression he's actually level-headed about important world decisions.

Alas, having read huge volumes about PNAC, the neo-con strategies and individuals I have a different view. I don't think they are mad, just that they have an agenda and the rules are "anything goes".

It appears to me, essentially this, that if you can make the trigger for Iranian conflict into something that can be sold to the masses as "they fired first, they initiated it" then it becomes another 9/11 - another very terrible thing that people rally around. Not something to riot in the streets about.

Say for a minute Iran genuinely and openly declared war on the US and started shooting - the impact on oil prices etc would be the same and the impact on world economies would be the same, yet people queing at the pumps would be mad at Tehran and not London/Washington.

So if you want war with Iran and you want to stay in power - and that all flavours of this lead to the same terrible side effects - you just have to package it correctly, thats all.

So I'll have my VCR ready for when BBC Solent have some breaking news footage (greyed out in places...) of TB running naked down the high street, because it's not his finger-on-the-button (if only it were...), it's people with a fundamentally different view on things (imo).

I don't say conflict will happen, only that the bar for it doing so is very low indeed.
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Post by Joe »

I'm not so sure you know - I think the neo cons would love to go into Iran but (TB's points aside), China might yet flex their diplomatic muscles over such a move - they were seemingly impassive about Iraq but have seen the cost of their oil imports go through the roof since then - one would have thought that they won't be as circumspect about the prospect of an even worse situation because of a US-led incursion into Iran.

China moved to peg the Yuan against a basket of currencies instead of just the USD last year - what kind of scope does this give them for applying economic pressure on the US? I'm guessing it means that they could dump their US assets and move into another country/currency more easily, leaving the US economy foundering if they so wished?

TB may yet avoid having to run naked through the streets of a town full of butch sailors.
Bozzio
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Post by Bozzio »

I agree with all sides of the argument and I hope TB is right about the the PTB being in a stalemate situation. In this weather, I'd hate for TB to have to run the streets naked.

Fischertrop is correct though. There is much propaganda at the moment (nuclear weapons, drugs in afghanistan, Osma bin Laden) and I think the machine is just trying to calculate the best angle of attack. GW and TB seem to be staying quiet so as not to rouse the suspicions of the general public. Instead Israel is dealing with this one along with John Bolton in the US and Jack Straw over here, although John Reid has now been brought in to spread a phoney reason for massive troop deployment in Afghanistan.

It's interesting that John Reid made a big statement to the House on Thursday on the need to control drugs and the Taliban in Afghanistan and yet yesterday he started talking about saving us from world terrorism. This is a sign of a propagnada effort that is trying all angles.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4653008.stm
Outlining the original purpose of the UK's presence in Afghanistan, Mr Reid said: "The reason we are doing this is to protect the British people from the sort of attacks we saw murdering thousands of people in the Twin Towers in New York.

"That was launched, prepared, trained for in Afghanistan by the terrorists, so by doing this our soldiers are protecting our interests here."
This quote from Reid is very significant for me because I and millions like me don't for a second believe in the official conspiracy story of 9/11 as given to us by Bush and his cronies. The evidence that it was an inside job is overwhelming. (Anyone wanting proof then please PM me and I will send you a couple of free DVD's which should help to raise a few questions about the event if nothing else). It therefore makes my blood boil that he can use these words; words which GW repeats time and time again. I think this is a sign of desperation and very sad it is too.

If the neocons did pull off 9/11 then Iran might not be so hard after all. I agree that Russia and China will not stand silent but if this is about a war on resources then it might just be seen as justifiable. And if the US economy is going down the pan anyway then why not attack and see what happens. After all, a sick dog will often bite when you try to touch it.
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Totally_Baffled
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Post by Totally_Baffled »

I am quite prepared to run the streets of Southampton naked if it happens! :lol:
Dont worry guys I'm bluffing ! :lol: :lol:
TB

Peak oil? ahhh smeg..... :(
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Totally_Baffled
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Post by Totally_Baffled »

And I'm still waiting for your critique on my IOB massive... 8)

I am still digesting it - good read though.

I cannot disagree with any of the points you make IF the IOB got established and a significant proportion of the oil trade went into Euro's.

So that part is spot on.

I can only refer you to Mr Bills post I sent earlier. If you are looking to set up something like this which is worth 85mpd * $70 a day, are you going to feel secure trading through a country like Iran or London/New York. Who is going to want to risk huge sums of money through a country which has a mad man in charge , has totally shite infrastructure , regulatory systems etc (see below)
The most successful financial centers have strong regulatory & supervisory environments, strong contract law as dispute mechanisms, liquidity and a deep pool of investors that are ready and willing to take risk, transparency and governments that do not interfer in the markets.

Tehran fulfills none of these criteria. The Iranian President wants to hang speculators which are the life blood of any freely traded market. He does not believe in interest rates which is the mechanism by which financial markets assign risk and allocate capital.
Are OPEC and the Russians (thats 50% of the worlds oil) going to put their bread and butter in the hands of a system born by the Iranians?

Are the Chinese , japanese , South Koreans (etc) going to want to see there huge piles of dollars devalued substantially as they all panic to switch them into Euros?

The status quo may suck, but I will say it again , you drag the US down you drag down everyone - who is going to replace the export demand generated by the US?

As for the military build up - lets get it into perspective. UK troops in Iraq are now 6000-8000. There will be 5000 in Afghanistan, in the south eastern part of the country (nowhere near the border).

This is less than half the amount of troops built up for the Iraq invasion(25000 troops), and this assumes we completely desert Iraq to go off an invade Iran!

The US has mid term elections this year - this is why troops are being pulled out of Iraq. The republicans are under pressure to not lose badly in these elections. How well do you think they will do if thousands of Americans are getting slaughtered in Iran, there is petrol rationing at $6 a gallon , a sliding dollar and imminent recession?

An invasion of Iran is poppycock and the IOB (if it starts ) will fade into irelevancy.

I think sometimes (and I mean this in a nice way - Im not being an asshole) that people almost "want" or "will" the worst to happen. There seems to be tendency to see the worse in every news story.

Remember guys the original date for this oil bourse was March 2005 ......
Last edited by Totally_Baffled on 28 Jan 2006, 10:52, edited 1 time in total.
TB

Peak oil? ahhh smeg..... :(
MacG
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Post by MacG »

I have said it before, and I say it again: Agree completely with TB here.

There is, however, a non-zero possibility that the PTB in Washington are completely crazy, and then we are done. Simple as that. Anyone who belive that should start stocking up on shovels, woodworking tools, seeds, dried food, potatoes and warm clothing.

I see no way in hell that our infrastructures would survive more than a month or two with a blocked Strait of Hormuz. The entire western civilization would be done. Over with. Gone. *Poff*. No need for nukes, just *poff*.

Add in the Moskit/Sunburn missile and a direct hit on a US carrier in the Persian gulf. Such a proof-of-concept would turn the entire US carrier fleet useless in a second. Peaceful reunion between Taiwan and China the month after.

Since nobody would care in the general mess, I also volunteer to run naked through the streets if Iran is attacked!
Bozzio
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Post by Bozzio »

MacG wrote:There is, however, a non-zero possibility that the PTB in Washington are completely crazy, and then we are done. Simple as that. Anyone who belive that should start stocking up on shovels, woodworking tools, seeds, dried food, potatoes and warm clothing.
I better get stocking up then.

I don't think the Strait will the issue you think it is. If many countries are dependant upon it then it will have to be defended. Even China will have to keep it open. Maybe that's what the troops in Afghanistan are there for.

I do think the present US government is that crazy.

Just my opinion.
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