‘Big Brother’ in your fridge

[Little John]

Yes, generating capacity will allways fall to a just sufficient level.
This applies to the total existing capacity, no one is going to build or keep generating capacity that is far in excess of likely need.
A modest amount is kept for breakdowns and exceptional demand, but there is an economic limit to this.

There is indeed an economic limit if the free market is left to macro-manage our energy supplies. Which is precisely why such macro management should be in the hands of the state so that such short-termist, market-driven silliness is done away with.

It also applies to the generating capacity available for any given hour on any given day. This is calculated by the national grid and instructions given as to what plant is to be made available, again a modest allowance is made for breakdowns and errors in forecasting demand.
No sensible person would instruct a large power station with a long run up time to be on "hot standby" with fuel being burnt to raise steam, unless there was a reasonable likelihood of it being needed.

Then why was this issue of DD not such a critical issue right the way up through the industrial revolution? The answer is obvious. It's because supply constraints were not so tight previously. Therefore, the simplest and fairest way to reduce supply constraints once more is to reduce demand in line with reduced supply via per capita rationing of domestic energy consumption. The rest will take care of itself. This level of micro management is just an engineer's and BIG-STATE's wet dream.

[adam2]

The potential mismatch of electricity supply and demand HAS been a problem since the invention of electricity !

It has become more of a problem in recent years for 3 main reasons

1) greater standards of reliability are expected, with any large power failure followed by calls "to ensure it never happens again" but as recently as the 1960s, the odd power cut was tolerated when demand exceeded supply.

2) we have run out of of cheap fossil fuel, so running power plants inefficiently at part load is more of a concern than in the past. Also carbon emissions are of much greater concern than years ago.

3) There is less potential for emergency load shedding by voltage reduction than in years gone by. In the past several % could be knocked of short term demand by reducing the voltage. This does not work with many modern loads that tend to use the same power even at a reduced voltage.

[Tarrel]

The potential mismatch of electricity supply and demand HAS been a problem since the invention of electricity !

It has become more of a problem in recent years for 3 main reasons

1) greater standards of reliability are expected, with any large power failure followed by calls "to ensure it never happens again" but as recently as the 1960s, the odd power cut was tolerated when demand exceeded supply.

2) we have run out of of cheap fossil fuel, so running power plants inefficiently at part load is more of a concern than in the past. Also carbon emissions are of much greater concern than years ago.

3) There is less potential for emergency load shedding by voltage reduction than in years gone by. In the past several % could be knocked of short term demand by reducing the voltage. This does not work with many modern loads that tend to use the same power even at a reduced voltage.

Plus, the technology to achieve DD wouldn't have been available until recently.

[RenewableCandy]

Can I just get this clear: Once, say, Chateau Renewable have purchased the shiny new DD-enabled fridge, and presumably registered it for guarantee purposes and perhaps to get a bit off our leccy bill, does any further information travel from our fridge to our electricity supplier? I would have thought that the fridge would sense a lowering of frequency, and then apply some algorithm of its own to decide whether or not to cut out. And that our supplier needn't know what this is for each individual fridge, only to know what the new aggregate demand is. Thus, no mechanism would exist for getting further information from us (other than what's supplied now, namely our total electricity consumption, because they have to know how much to charge us).

[adam2]

Can I just get this clear: Once, say, Chateau Renewable have purchased the shiny new DD-enabled fridge, and presumably registered it for guarantee purposes and perhaps to get a bit off our leccy bill, does any further information travel from our fridge to our electricity supplier? I would have thought that the fridge would sense a lowering of frequency, and then apply some algorithm of its own to decide whether or not to cut out. And that our supplier needn't know what this is for each individual fridge, only to know what the new aggregate demand is. Thus, no mechanism would exist for getting further information from us (other than what's supplied now, namely our total electricity consumption, because they have to know how much to charge us).

I believe that you are correct.
What is proposed is an automatic device that responds in a simple pre-programed way to low supply frequency.
There is no way for them to communicate with your fridge in particular, as distinct from a general frequency input to every appliance in the land that is fitted with a similar controller.
The controller would be no more able to "talk" to the supplier than can an existing thermostat.

And anyway, how they would know were the fridge is ? there is no obligation to register the warrenty, people move and take appliances with them, fridges are sold secondhand with no paperwork, and purchased as gifts.

I doubt that you would get any discount on your electricity bill, to problematic to administer.
I consider it more likely that there would be a discount on the purchase price, or a surcharge on non DD fridges to encourage purchase.

[Tarrel]

Can I just get this clear: Once, say, Chateau Renewable have purchased the shiny new DD-enabled fridge, and presumably registered it for guarantee purposes and perhaps to get a bit off our leccy bill, does any further information travel from our fridge to our electricity supplier? I would have thought that the fridge would sense a lowering of frequency, and then apply some algorithm of its own to decide whether or not to cut out. And that our supplier needn't know what this is for each individual fridge, only to know what the new aggregate demand is. Thus, no mechanism would exist for getting further information from us (other than what's supplied now, namely our total electricity consumption, because they have to know how much to charge us).

Nah, it'll be connected to the Interweb. Before you know it, you'll be getting unsolicited offers from Tesco Club Card, inviting you to try their new chilled horse-free lasagne!

[RenewableCandy]

B***er that, then.

[Little John]

Can I just get this clear: Once, say, Chateau Renewable have purchased the shiny new DD-enabled fridge, and presumably registered it for guarantee purposes and perhaps to get a bit off our leccy bill, does any further information travel from our fridge to our electricity supplier? I would have thought that the fridge would sense a lowering of frequency, and then apply some algorithm of its own to decide whether or not to cut out. And that our supplier needn't know what this is for each individual fridge, only to know what the new aggregate demand is. Thus, no mechanism would exist for getting further information from us (other than what's supplied now, namely our total electricity consumption, because they have to know how much to charge us).

what do you think? I know what i think and i believe Ihave good reason for thinking it.

[RenewableCandy]

I think the motto "many a true word spoken in jest" might be applied to Tarrel's last comment

[Tarrel]

I think the motto "many a true word spoken in jest" might be applied to Tarrel's last comment

Jest? Moi?

[emordnilap]

B***er that, then.

A good motto for many, many things in this age, I think.

[Pepperman]

Can I just get this clear: Once, say, Chateau Renewable have purchased the shiny new DD-enabled fridge, and presumably registered it for guarantee purposes and perhaps to get a bit off our leccy bill, does any further information travel from our fridge to our electricity supplier? I would have thought that the fridge would sense a lowering of frequency, and then apply some algorithm of its own to decide whether or not to cut out. And that our supplier needn't know what this is for each individual fridge, only to know what the new aggregate demand is. Thus, no mechanism would exist for getting further information from us (other than what's supplied now, namely our total electricity consumption, because they have to know how much to charge us).

That's exactly how it works. No individual has control over your fridge, it's just a very simple (and very cheap) chip that the manufacturers pop into cold appliances which senses grid frequency and then delays the refrigeration cycle by a few minutes as long as the temperature of the cold appliance doesn't fall outside of a set range. This technology is such an easy win and such a non-issue but sadly it's going to be portrayed in certain sections of the media as THE STATE REACHING INTO YOUR HOME AND SWITCHING OFF YOUR APPLIANCES.

I sincerely hope that it becomes part of product standards as soon as possible. It should have been implemented years ago because the churn rate of white goods is slow so it'll take a long time for it to have an effect.

[Pepperman]

Steve you make a very spirited call for energy rationing but this is not about a shortage of energy, it's about a shortage of power.

If you have electricity rationing and still have everyone consuming the bulk of their limited amount of electricity all at the same time then you're still going to have the problem of peak demand stressing electricity supplies.

We need people to use less but we also need to spread demand out more.

[Tarrel]

Can I just get this clear: Once, say, Chateau Renewable have purchased the shiny new DD-enabled fridge, and presumably registered it for guarantee purposes and perhaps to get a bit off our leccy bill, does any further information travel from our fridge to our electricity supplier? I would have thought that the fridge would sense a lowering of frequency, and then apply some algorithm of its own to decide whether or not to cut out. And that our supplier needn't know what this is for each individual fridge, only to know what the new aggregate demand is. Thus, no mechanism would exist for getting further information from us (other than what's supplied now, namely our total electricity consumption, because they have to know how much to charge us).

That's exactly how it works. No individual has control over your fridge, it's just a very simple (and very cheap) chip that the manufacturers pop into cold appliances which senses grid frequency and then delays the refrigeration cycle by a few minutes as long as the temperature of the cold appliance doesn't fall outside of a set range. This technology is such an easy win and such a non-issue but sadly it's going to be portrayed in certain sections of the media as THE STATE REACHING INTO YOUR HOME AND SWITCHING OFF YOUR APPLIANCES.

I sincerely hope that it becomes part of product standards as soon as possible. It should have been implemented years ago because the churn rate of white goods is slow so it'll take a long time for it to have an effect.

I still don't understand why the refrigeration cycle would kick in anyway, if the temperature was within the acceptable range. Maybe I just don't "get" fridges.

[clv101]

That's exactly how it works. No individual has control over your fridge, it's just a very simple (and very cheap) chip that the manufacturers pop into cold appliances which senses grid frequency and then delays the refrigeration cycle by a few minutes as long as the temperature of the cold appliance doesn't fall outside of a set range. This technology is such an easy win and such a non-issue but sadly it's going to be portrayed in certain sections of the media as THE STATE REACHING INTO YOUR HOME AND SWITCHING OFF YOUR APPLIANCES.

I sincerely hope that it becomes part of product standards as soon as possible. It should have been implemented years ago because the churn rate of white goods is slow so it'll take a long time for it to have an effect.

Well said. I can understand the likes of the Daily Mail intentionally getting the wrong end of the stick. I'm disappointed some on PowerSwitch are too though.