Well yes in a way because you thought he was an "armchair survivalist" and had done nothing to prepare.nika wrote:This matters with respect to his grossly pejorative statements about what we are doing?RenewableCandy wrote:Erm...welcome to PS Nika but I hope you've read some of our previous "form". Contadino runs a farm/smallholding in Italy so he's not exactly sitting in an armchair either.
When the Lights Go Out
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RenewableCandy
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So there's something wrong with permaculture because a few charts are shown on the web. I bet it's nothing compared to the paperwork being generated in the offices of governments, big business and NGOs. Permaculture is about doing stuff, and because it's based on ethics, rather than BAU and money, it actually puts people first. If more people really understood what permaculture is about, and there are lot of people around who claim they do, but don't, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in now.
I think Vortex's mention of acupuncture and reflexology is a reference to the number of feelie goodie types of people that are found within permaculture circles.
Now actually I have nothing against acupuncture or reflexology, nor against permaculture. Indeed I have done a 5 day Permaculture course and an online Permaculture Design Course. The basic principles are fine provided they are not seen as the whole or only answer but rather a way of helping people to address problems and create solutions.
However there are flaws with the way in which the whole movement is going IMO. I like a scientific view, I have little time for all the touchie feelie mystical stuff and it seems that unfortunately most of the folk attracted to permaculture are also rather into some of this sort of alternative mystical "woo".
On the subject of drawing artistic flow charts and mind maps - I think they are useful if you have been commissioned for something and need to put something pretty on paper to show your ideas and to leave the person who has paid you with something to inspire their vision.
Sadly I agree with contandino about the mindy maps on the link shown. They feel patronising and somewhat naive in their outlook. And from that angle I can see where the motive for Vortex's post came from.
Perhaps if the mind maps for the way forward were posted a month or two down the line it would not seem so insensitive to the current suffering?
Now actually I have nothing against acupuncture or reflexology, nor against permaculture. Indeed I have done a 5 day Permaculture course and an online Permaculture Design Course. The basic principles are fine provided they are not seen as the whole or only answer but rather a way of helping people to address problems and create solutions.
However there are flaws with the way in which the whole movement is going IMO. I like a scientific view, I have little time for all the touchie feelie mystical stuff and it seems that unfortunately most of the folk attracted to permaculture are also rather into some of this sort of alternative mystical "woo".
On the subject of drawing artistic flow charts and mind maps - I think they are useful if you have been commissioned for something and need to put something pretty on paper to show your ideas and to leave the person who has paid you with something to inspire their vision.
Sadly I agree with contandino about the mindy maps on the link shown. They feel patronising and somewhat naive in their outlook. And from that angle I can see where the motive for Vortex's post came from.
Perhaps if the mind maps for the way forward were posted a month or two down the line it would not seem so insensitive to the current suffering?
Last edited by Keela on 17 Jan 2010, 22:27, edited 1 time in total.
Nika,
I've looked at a bit more of your site and agree that you have much to offer on your site beyond the drawings.
I'll be taking a bit more of a look around - as I don't really want to make judgements on just one post that perhaps was not linked-to in the most positive manner.
Many folk on here are doing much of what you are and I think, despite our first critical comments on your mindmap, that you will find many who agree with your basic outlook.
I do think your mind map was probably created with good intent, and because you care...... just to me it seems the timing is not so ideal......
Anyway WELCOME Nika. I hope you stay around.
Sally (aka Keela)
I've looked at a bit more of your site and agree that you have much to offer on your site beyond the drawings.
I'll be taking a bit more of a look around - as I don't really want to make judgements on just one post that perhaps was not linked-to in the most positive manner.
Many folk on here are doing much of what you are and I think, despite our first critical comments on your mindmap, that you will find many who agree with your basic outlook.
I do think your mind map was probably created with good intent, and because you care...... just to me it seems the timing is not so ideal......
Anyway WELCOME Nika. I hope you stay around.
Sally (aka Keela)
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Aurora
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kenneal - lagger
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So, help me understand here. Either the flowcharts are for the Haitians, or to help the aid agencies. Either you think you know what the Haitians want better than they themselves do, or you think the aid agencies don't know what they're doing. Which one is it?nika wrote: Contadino
Several points for you.
1) I am not a he, I am a she
2) I walk the talk, see that same link that you referred to and look around. We grow much of our own food, we raise our own chickens, we produce our own milk, yogurt, buttermilk, cheese, entertainment with our herd of 12 LaMancha dairy goats.
3) What have you done for Haiti? Or are you an armchair commentator on this situation?
4) What have you done to prepare? Or are you an armchair survivalist?
5) Know what you are talking about before you make such foolish statements
6) Learn something about permaculture - for your own sake - truly. Without systemic thinking, you are lost.
7) Do us ALL a favor, once you skill up in any respect, contribute constructively.
In response to your 3rd point, doing nothing is more use than doing flowcharts like those.
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Aurora
I didn't ask you to leave, just turn the volume down a bit.disabled guy wrote:aye and some of the folks on this forum are "experts" ( for what THAT words worth ) in dealing with clearing up the mess people make for them selves too - so sorry for voicing an opinion
seems like a lot of forums , my opinions and experience are not wanted - so my advice ?? have a nice life - ill go preach to the converted somewhere else - seems as usual every one knows it all here
me gone - see you around folks
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So Vortex's logic runs along the lines.. Policemen wear blue, so all people wearing blue are policemen?Keela wrote:I think Vortex's mention of acupuncture and reflexology is a reference to the number of feelie goodie types of people that are found within permaculture circles.
Well that certainly explains a lot about his comments.
Either that or he thinks Permaculturalists would be as much use to the Haitians as teams of reflexologists and acupuncturists. Whichever way it is not very flattering to permaculturalists!foodimista wrote:So Vortex's logic runs along the lines.. Policemen wear blue, so all people wearing blue are policemen?Keela wrote:I think Vortex's mention of acupuncture and reflexology is a reference to the number of feelie goodie types of people that are found within permaculture circles.
Well that certainly explains a lot about his comments.
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kenneal - lagger
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I would think that all the aid agencies have there own flowcharts, not to mention spread sheets and databases, to enable them to control the flow of aid into the country and to ensure that they have the correct materials going in.
Permaculture is very good at rehabilitating land and with the almost complete lack of tree cover in Haiti now, rehabilitation is just what is needed. Things like on-contour berms and ditches on hillsides to control the flow of surface water and top soil until trees can be reinstated are at the heart of Permaculture thinking. These will retain water in the landscape, making it available to plants for longer, and reduce lowland flooding. Fruit and nut trees planted on the berms will stabilise the berms and give food and fuel. They will help reduce the impact of intense rainfall on the soil and give shelter to a whole range of smaller food crops. Re-treeing of slopes at risk in hurricane rainfall using a mixture of food, fodder and fuel trees serves a dual purpose of , as above, surface water control and food provision.
There is nothing mystical about Permaculture. It is just a series of joined up common sense strategies that modern farming has lost. It takes the best of many methods of farming and gardening and brings them together in a homogeneous way of thinking and design. Permaculturists may not be needed in the, rescue, first stage of work in Haiti but they have a tremendous amount to offer in later redevelopment stages.
If we just leave Haitians to there own devises we will be feeding them and rescuing them every time a hurricane blows within 50 miles of the island. If we can help them to rehabilitate their island there is a possibility that Haiti might become a little more like their neighbours, the Dominican Republic, and not the basket case they are at the moment, vulnerable to every peak and trough of the global economic cycle.
If Vortex read a little about Permaculture I am sure he would see the common sense in all of the practises preached. As I said, there is nothing mystical about it at all, although some of its results may seem mystical to people accustomed to the failures of modern farming methods applied in inappropriate conditions.
Permaculture is very good at rehabilitating land and with the almost complete lack of tree cover in Haiti now, rehabilitation is just what is needed. Things like on-contour berms and ditches on hillsides to control the flow of surface water and top soil until trees can be reinstated are at the heart of Permaculture thinking. These will retain water in the landscape, making it available to plants for longer, and reduce lowland flooding. Fruit and nut trees planted on the berms will stabilise the berms and give food and fuel. They will help reduce the impact of intense rainfall on the soil and give shelter to a whole range of smaller food crops. Re-treeing of slopes at risk in hurricane rainfall using a mixture of food, fodder and fuel trees serves a dual purpose of , as above, surface water control and food provision.
There is nothing mystical about Permaculture. It is just a series of joined up common sense strategies that modern farming has lost. It takes the best of many methods of farming and gardening and brings them together in a homogeneous way of thinking and design. Permaculturists may not be needed in the, rescue, first stage of work in Haiti but they have a tremendous amount to offer in later redevelopment stages.
If we just leave Haitians to there own devises we will be feeding them and rescuing them every time a hurricane blows within 50 miles of the island. If we can help them to rehabilitate their island there is a possibility that Haiti might become a little more like their neighbours, the Dominican Republic, and not the basket case they are at the moment, vulnerable to every peak and trough of the global economic cycle.
If Vortex read a little about Permaculture I am sure he would see the common sense in all of the practises preached. As I said, there is nothing mystical about it at all, although some of its results may seem mystical to people accustomed to the failures of modern farming methods applied in inappropriate conditions.
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez