Daughter, my generation is squandering your birthright

[re]

Didn't say I wouldn't have two kids myself, but then I wouldn't bleat and moan like Monbiot does on the Guardian.

You didn't mention bleating and moaning, you simply accused him of placing "a [sic] ever greater burden on the worlds [sic] resources".

Phew, I don't agree will LB3 then. Had me worried for a moment there.

[Totally_Baffled]

Hi Steve

You make a good point reference having kids as an insurance policy. However, its interesting to note this didn't happen in Eastern Europe post the Soviet Union?

I think I am right in saying that birth rates plummeted, and populations in these countries are contracting rapidly (indeed Russia is forecast to drop from 144 million in 2000 to below 100 million in 2050)

Not that the above is a scenario worth looking foward to! It was in effect an economic collapse with a host other horrible issues too!

you're right about Russia. However, I would suggest that is because of an increased capacity to migrate to economically more benign territories. In the coming crisis, there will be nowhere for people to go.

Certainly this is a factor in the population decline in these ex soviet countries, but those that did remain in their home countries had fewer children and the birth rate nose dived.

I am just curious to what is the difference in the mentality of an impoverished post soviet eastern european (whose circumstances have worsened and therefore decides against having kids) compared to an impoverished african who decides to have loads.

I suppose cultural attitudes to womans rights/freedoms, religion and education comes into it? Would we lose all this post economic collapse in the west?

Unsure myself

[Little John]

Hi Steve

You make a good point reference having kids as an insurance policy. However, its interesting to note this didn't happen in Eastern Europe post the Soviet Union?

I think I am right in saying that birth rates plummeted, and populations in these countries are contracting rapidly (indeed Russia is forecast to drop from 144 million in 2000 to below 100 million in 2050)

Not that the above is a scenario worth looking foward to! It was in effect an economic collapse with a host other horrible issues too!

you're right about Russia. However, I would suggest that is because of an increased capacity to migrate to economically more benign territories. In the coming crisis, there will be nowhere for people to go.

Certainly this is a factor in the population decline in these ex soviet countries, but those that did remain in their home countries had fewer children and the birth rate nose dived.

I am just curious to what is the difference in the mentality of an impoverished post soviet eastern european (whose circumstances have worsened and therefore decides against having kids) compared to an impoverished african who decides to have loads.

I suppose cultural attitudes to womans rights/freedoms, religion and education comes into it? Would we lose all this post economic collapse in the west?

Unsure myself

I think it is probable we would lose it, yes. It's taken centuries to drag our cultures up to the point where everyone is educated to a high degree and where there is an automatic assumption that women are not merely chattel whose primary purpose is as fertility machines. These achievements are delicate cultural flowers and we will, I suspect, see them wither more easily than we think.

[biffvernon]

What is PowerSwitch? A bloomin' dating agency?

[emordnilap]

What is PowerSwitch?

It's what happens when you get married.

[JohnB]

What is PowerSwitch? A bloomin' dating agency?

If it is, it hasn't worked for me yet .

[jonny2mad]

Why not have a third child or half a dozen, we are still bringing in millions of people from the third world so what difference will it make, the UK population wont go down .

Yes, thank you Anders. That'll be quite enough of that if you please.

Listening to what's going on in that courtroom the question arises 'How did they decide he was sane?'

I haven't been covering the trial too closely but what makes you think hes not sane ? can you see why it would be nice to have him recant, or say the pixies made him do it, and that would be the best way to spin the story .

I'm not saying he is or is not mad, I'm not sure how you define madness when your talking about people willing to die for a cause or commit acts of political mass murder, was bomber Harris mad or Geronimo or Joan of ark .

If he was part of a group or had more chance of reaching his goals whatever they are would he be less insane

[featherstick]

Hi Steve

You make a good point reference having kids as an insurance policy. However, its interesting to note this didn't happen in Eastern Europe post the Soviet Union?

I think I am right in saying that birth rates plummeted, and populations in these countries are contracting rapidly (indeed Russia is forecast to drop from 144 million in 2000 to below 100 million in 2050)

Not that the above is a scenario worth looking foward to! It was in effect an economic collapse with a host other horrible issues too!

you're right about Russia. However, I would suggest that is because of an increased capacity to migrate to economically more benign territories. In the coming crisis, there will be nowhere for people to go.

Certainly this is a factor in the population decline in these ex soviet countries, but those that did remain in their home countries had fewer children and the birth rate nose dived.

I am just curious to what is the difference in the mentality of an impoverished post soviet eastern european (whose circumstances have worsened and therefore decides against having kids) compared to an impoverished african who decides to have loads.

I suppose cultural attitudes to womans rights/freedoms, religion and education comes into it? Would we lose all this post economic collapse in the west?

Unsure myself

The Soviet Union's birth rate was already nose-diving before 1991. People might have a second child if the first was a girl, but one was more usual, among ethnic Russians at least. The Soviet Union had already broken the "lots of kids = old age support" paradigm, apart from the Central Asian republics that Russia annexed relatively late - 1890s to 1910s.

[Totally_Baffled]

The Soviet Union's birth rate was already nose-diving before 1991. People might have a second child if the first was a girl, but one was more usual, among ethnic Russians at least. The Soviet Union had already broken the "lots of kids = old age support" paradigm, apart from the Central Asian republics that Russia annexed relatively late - 1890s to 1910s.

Ah ok, I stand corrected. But all the same, post soviet economic collapse- my point is why didnt the birth rate increase if that is what happens when people get poorer? (and birth rates are still low 21 years later)

[Little John]

The Soviet Union's birth rate was already nose-diving before 1991. People might have a second child if the first was a girl, but one was more usual, among ethnic Russians at least. The Soviet Union had already broken the "lots of kids = old age support" paradigm, apart from the Central Asian republics that Russia annexed relatively late - 1890s to 1910s.

Ah ok, I stand corrected. But all the same, post soviet economic collapse- my point is why didnt the birth rate increase if that is what happens when people get poorer? (and birth rates are still low 21 years later)

I think that may be explained by two things

1) Cultural lag. That is to say, if the cultural ink between having lots of kids and being supported in old age was broken by the Soviets due to state-support, then there would be a cultural lag following the fall of the soviets and that support.

2) That which I mentioned earlier; the fact that the Russians were/are a well educated nation of people and they were able to migrate.

[mobbsey]

I'm sorry, but Mpnbiot is a little behind the times. Michael Moore did this metaphor so much better in 'Dude, Where's My Country' when he reproduced the letter from his future (fictitious) granddaughter; and another yank posted a similar article in the USA three weeks ago.

I will never apologise to my descendants for giving them life. The point of life isn't the having of it, but the doing something useful with it. I've always opposed the consumer/growth gig. More importantly, I'm teaching them how to work past these problems and live a simpler, less consuming, more self-supporting lifestyle -- and if the worst comes to the worst I'm also passing on my foraging and camping skills too.

[RenewableCandy]

All this stuff about FSU birth-rates is almost making me feel guilty for purloining a perfectly good Russian

I've heard a theory about hot weather making the difference between poverty causing a rise, or a fall, in family size. You try sharing a 2-bedroom flat with a family of 6 when you have to stay indoors all day in a Russian winter, with sharing a basic hut with a similar-sized family when there's a kitchen-garden or similar where there's always some extra room to mess about/help out with the chores and feel useful outdoors in the sunshine.

Well, it's a theory.

[UndercoverElephant]

What is PowerSwitch?

It's what happens when you get married.

Or if you don't.

[emordnilap]

'twas a joke. Oh well.

[biffvernon]

I thought it was funny.