Peak Oil and 911

grinu · Post by **grinu** » 06 Feb 2006, 13:07

Yeah - the topical Iran posts are getting lost.

fishertrop · Post by **fishertrop** » 06 Feb 2006, 13:23

I think 9/11 is an important subject, but it comes with a LOT of baggage.

Personally I'd very much like to see this Iran thread come back on track and the 9/11 subject on a different thread.

Any chance one of the admins could split the 9/11 posts off into another thread in the near future - all the posts seem to have come close together with very little Iran stuff mixed in, if we split now before the two subjects get interwoven that sounds little very little disruption.

Bozzio · Post by **Bozzio** » 06 Feb 2006, 13:36

This is my fault really.

I started a bit of a war between Totally_Baffled and myself over the weekend in reply to a comment he made about 9/11. This was relevant to Iran at the time. I agree it has now gone off course and will be happy to conform to thread rules.

The only problem with a separate 9/11 conspiracy thread is that if seen by a newcomer to PO it may put them off the site altogether. Tess said something similar over the weekend and I kind of agree with her. However, I also agree with fischertrop that 9/11 is an important subject to discuss and I think it is relevant to the PO debate at large.

Any thoughts?

fishertrop · Post by **fishertrop** » 06 Feb 2006, 14:51

Bozzio wrote: The only problem with a separate 9/11 conspiracy thread is that if seen by a newcomer to PO it may put them off the site altogether. Tess said something similar over the weekend and I kind of agree with her. However, I also agree with fischertrop that 9/11 is an important subject to discuss and I think it is relevant to the PO debate at large.

Well, we have at least one 9/11 thread, even if it's called "Iran xyz..." so any newcomer that wanted to read about the current hot-topic of Iran would get a surprise!!

If there is sufficient interest on this site to discuss 9/11, and I think there is, then we shouldn't hijack other threads for it we should just have a sperate one.

If you call it "Do you have a point of view on 9//11 ?" it need not be that off-putting and surely better than the same in disguise?

Totally_Baffled · Post by **Totally_Baffled** » 06 Feb 2006, 18:43

I have to take some responsibility as well Bozzio for "hi jacking" this thread (if you pardon the pun! LOL)

grinu · Post by **grinu** » 06 Feb 2006, 19:24

I agree it's definitely an important topic - certainly opened my eyes a bit, although I kind of half believed it anyway. If that dvd is still going I'd love a copy (will pay costs etc.). It does have some relevance to Iran in that there is going to be a similar lack of straight talking etc., and who knows, possibly another 'terrorist' incident somewhere to convince the public that it has to be done.

Is it possible to have some sort of 'misc' forum? Most other forums I'm a member of have a 'free for all' forum where people talk about anything. Unlikely that someone checking out peak oil for the first time would bother with a folder named that. I know that the forums were condensed to make them more user friendly though, so not sure if that's practical advice.

Totally_Baffled · Post by **Totally_Baffled** » 06 Feb 2006, 19:28

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science ... 27842.html

See the problem is we will never know , there are zillions of websites like this one that debunk the conspiracy theories with expert testimony (apparently)

So who do you believe? I guess its all a matter of opinion....

I fully agree that the US used 9/11 to invade Iraq and Afghanistan, but I think it was more opportunism than planning.

Besides - Bush pulls off the finest inside job in history yet cannot even plant some WMD in Iraq.

Just think if had, then John Kerry need not of bothered standing!

wayne72 · Post by **wayne72** » 07 Feb 2006, 10:58

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 0224991194

A 1 hour documentary. Make up your own mind, its the only way.

Bozzio · Post by **Bozzio** » 07 Feb 2006, 16:08

DamianB wrote:I've split the 911 crap off the Iran/Uranium thread and would be grateful if the two posts above could be modified if necessary and tacked on the end of that one so that I can delete this one.

911 crap!

I'm not sure I like the idea of site admin imposing its opinion. It should remain impartial.

This debate is not about crap and should be taken as seriously as any other discussion on PO. If you don't like it then don't bother posting just as I don't bother joining in with the oil price forecasts which I see as pointless and boring. That is my opinion although I certainly wouldn't describe that thread as being crap since I have no right to do so.

Let's be a little more accepting of other people's views please. We are all entitled to talk about such subjects. It was reading about 9/11 that lead me to discover PO and it might just do the same for others.

Thanks,

Bozzio

RevdTess · Post by **RevdTess** » 07 Feb 2006, 16:30

Bozzio wrote:We are all entitled to talk about such subjects. It was reading about 9/11 that lead me to discover PO and it might just do the same for others.

There are other sites which focus on conspiracies and if they mention peak oil and lead people here, that's great. I don't see why we should return the favour. If someone's already reading powerswitch we dont need the '9/11 crap' to bring them to a knowledge of peak oil now do we?

That said, I actually dont care all that much so long as the 9/11 thread stays hidden away in a shameful dark corner. I might even join in, just for fun.

Bozzio · Post by **Bozzio** » 07 Feb 2006, 17:45

Tess wrote:That said, I actually dont care all that much so long as the 9/11 thread stays hidden away in a shameful dark corner

Hi Tess,

I of course respect your opinion but I personally don't think there is anything shameful in discussing the possibilty of an alternative truth with regard to 9/11. But you have to look at the evidence first before you can challenge me.

I look forward to convincing you in the course of time.

By the way I didn't read about PO from another conspiracy site. Heinberg's The Party's Over introduced me to that. It was the connection between 9/11 and oil that lead me to research the oil industry a little further and to read Heinberg and others.

Incidently, the 9/11 sites don't advocate PO at all. Most participants think PO is another scam created to drive up the oil price and profits. Rubbish, of course. I am therefore not doing this to return any favours. I happen to think raising awareness of this subject is important and there are many others doing the same including Micheal Meacher (politician), Alex Cox (movie maker), David Ray Griffin (theology professor), John Pilger (journalist), Sibel Edmonds (former FBI), Max Cleland (911 commissioner), Cynthia Mckinney (US Congress), Greg Palast (BBC journalist) and hundreds more. I don't think we can all be talking crap.

RevdTess · Post by **RevdTess** » 07 Feb 2006, 18:17

Hi Bozzio,

Of course I am just winding you up about the 'shameful' thing.

And I know all about the peak-oil-as-scam idea. When I first started looking at the oil market for my job, a republican friend from the American midwest told me he hoped I'd be able to uncover the scam he suspected his government of perpetuating - that there was plenty of oil (including under his land, dammit!) and the oil companies were just refusing to bring it to market in order to drive up prices. Of course when I came to the opposite conclusion, that companies were actually being overly bullish about their future prospects, my friend wasn't terribly impressed.

And I too was reading about 9/11 conspiracies long before I heard about peak oil, though in my case the one did not lead to the other.

My view though is this: I can't possibly judge the evidence on 9/11 either way. It doesn't matter how many experts are wheeled out to convince me, I have no ability to judge their expertise, their motivation, their wisdom or their self-delusion. Every piece of evidence and testimony I've heard/seen/read looks absolutely convincing until the next piece comes along and contradicts it.

The fervency with which conspiracy theorists pursue the topic, and their ability to blind themselves to contradictory evidence is almost as scary as religious fundamentalism.

Pursuing 9/11 conspiracy is flogging a dead horse. People have moved on. Almost no-one wants to believe it, in fact it's insulting to the people who died and their families to say that not only did they die a meaningless death but it was at the hands of their own government. You can't fight that sentiment. Even if you're right, you've lost and you can't prove anything. My advice is get over it. Move on. Save yourself some credibility.

Bozzio · Post by **Bozzio** » 07 Feb 2006, 18:50

Tess wrote:You can't fight that sentiment. Even if you're right, you've lost and you can't prove anything. My advice is get over it. Move on. Save yourself some credibility.

A very sensible answer and I wouldn't expect anything less from you.

I'm not sure how much credibility I currently have so I don't mind losing some of it.

There are actually many family members of the victims who are also asking the same questions so I don't think the battle is lost as you say. Some are acting alone but many have joined together in groups such as the September 11th Advocates (http://www.sourcewatch.org/wiki.phtml?t ... _Advocates) or the Family Steering Commitee (http://www.911independentcommission.org/questions.html).

You might like to see the 9/11 petition similar to our PO petition (http://www.petitiononline.com/11601TFS/petition.html). It has over 28,000 signatures. I fail to see therefore why I should move on and forget about it or maybe you'd like to tell those people to do the same?

Bandidoz · Post by **Bandidoz** » 07 Feb 2006, 19:14

Isn't the "loose change" video a rebadged "In Plane site?"

There are a few articles on oilempire.us that identify this as bogus material (disinformation):

http://www.oilempire.us/inplanesite.html

http://www.oilempire.us/bogus.html

http://www.oilempire.us/state.html

Although I find 9/11 research interesting, I realise its limited value. I share Ruppert's position in that "no impeachment is EVER going to happen, so there is little point in pursuing the truth about 9/11. There are bigger elephants coming at us."

Look to the future instead of perpetuating a post-mortem. 9/11 research and debate is now an unfortunate distraction.

RevdTess · Post by **RevdTess** » 07 Feb 2006, 19:41

Bozzio wrote:I fail to see therefore why I should move on and forget about it or maybe you'd like to tell those people to do the same?

I think you should move on because you can't win, and you'll never know if you're right.

As for the people who've lost families, well it's not for me to tell them what to do or how to feel. But as for the conspiracists, I think they should leave it. Whether it's a fight for justice or an intellectual Bush-bashing ego-trip, they're still wasting time looking like, well, conspiracy theorists. There are other battles to fight.