True.... I'd miss you all though....Andy Hunt wrote:I think you should go, Jamie.
More room for the rest of us then, eh?!
Give me two good reasons, why I oughta stay....
Moderator: Peak Moderation
No, I mean really. Why stay? I don't know why I am trying to forge a solution here. It doesn't make sense. And surely the time to go is now, before the pound starts sliding.... while you can sell the house and buy somewhere with a bit of space....
I'd really be interested in hearing from those that have already left. Do you feel that you may be under threat post PO due to not being a national in your country of residence?
I'd really be interested in hearing from those that have already left. Do you feel that you may be under threat post PO due to not being a national in your country of residence?
Jim
For every complex problem, there is a simple answer, and it's wrong.
"Heaven and earth are ruthless, and treat the myriad creatures as straw dogs" (Lao Tzu V.i).
For every complex problem, there is a simple answer, and it's wrong.
"Heaven and earth are ruthless, and treat the myriad creatures as straw dogs" (Lao Tzu V.i).
-
- Posts: 157
- Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
- Location: Suffolk
My wife and were seriously considering moving to NZ about 2 years ago but when we eventually visited, we were left feeling somewhat disappointed. Sure, its a fantastic country but take off the holiday goggles, scratch beneath the surface and you'll find a real divide and very little integration between the Maori and European descendant population. There are truly amazing landscapes but at present these are only accessible by driving long distances. Town planning has basically followed the US in land hungry suburbia and commuter settlements of 'lifestyle blocks'. NZ has definitely got some big problems coming when PO kicks in. That said, the southern hemisphere does feel like the safest half of the planet to be at the moment.
JimSunnyJim wrote: I'd really be interested in hearing from those that have already left. Do you feel that you may be under threat post PO due to not being a national in your country of residence?
I have been here in Spain for quite awhile and feel very comfortable here with my Spanish neighbors. We are spread so far apart as there is lots of land but everyone knows each other by name and there is a kind of unnoficial neighborhood watch. I am considered a vecino, neighbor, and it doesnt matter that I am not Spanish born. What I am saying is that if you establish yourself well before things start getting bad, you shouldnt have a problem.
If you are really serious about upping sticks for other shores, see my new post in the classifieds.
It's all downhill from here!
- RenewableCandy
- Posts: 12777
- Joined: 12 Sep 2007, 12:13
- Location: York
Yes we have a lot of people. But we also have a very top-heavy and not very healthy population: a lot of people will leave (feet first) kind of naturally.
We have very good soil: it is blowing away but nowhere near as fast as that of a lot of other countries I could name.
Living here you need never, ever, fear drought. Unless somebody deliberately kills them, your plants will always grow.
The police are the same type as you: and I never thought I'd hear myself agree with Norman Tebbitt but people really /do/ feel more comfortable (the police included )when that is the case.
If it's low population density you're after, how about Russia? Mr Orlov notwithstanding, what with all the pollution legacy I think I'd rather stay here (the language there is a b***er to learn for a startoff).
About the only place I'd leave our shores for is France: I can speak, I've been there loads of times, their food and energy prospects are good, but establishing yourself in a new place (as opposed to just drifting in) is bloody costly in both money and time. Oh and every time the Germans get short of energy, they invade.
We have very good soil: it is blowing away but nowhere near as fast as that of a lot of other countries I could name.
Living here you need never, ever, fear drought. Unless somebody deliberately kills them, your plants will always grow.
The police are the same type as you: and I never thought I'd hear myself agree with Norman Tebbitt but people really /do/ feel more comfortable (the police included )when that is the case.
If it's low population density you're after, how about Russia? Mr Orlov notwithstanding, what with all the pollution legacy I think I'd rather stay here (the language there is a b***er to learn for a startoff).
About the only place I'd leave our shores for is France: I can speak, I've been there loads of times, their food and energy prospects are good, but establishing yourself in a new place (as opposed to just drifting in) is bloody costly in both money and time. Oh and every time the Germans get short of energy, they invade.
-
- Posts: 255
- Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
- Location: Bath->Tokyo->Cardiff-> Hokkaido, Japan next?
It's an interesting one.
Sure, Britain has a lot of problems... BUT given the other options that would be open to me...
Japan (get in there on a Spouse Visa initially) : In BAU world, Japan was very nice for nearly 3 years. Work has some downsides there (long, long, long hours), but rest of BAU Japan I really liked. BUT... BAU is not going to last. And then I then Japan is toast (which I find upsetting for my wife and all her family). Far for being self-sufficient. I suppose there's lots of old folk, who can die off to reduce the strain. But the youth of Japan are such an apathetic bunch (only difference between them and our youth is that they are nice and polite... but they still sponge off the older generation).
Australia : Posted there 3 months in Melbourne. Was quite nice... but with CC/GW, would not want to be there.
USA : NO CHANCE!
Iceland/Sweden/Norway : Language issues, otherwise, kinda appeals to me. That side... the idealised image of the country appeals to me, no idea what it's really like to live there.
Ireland (Eire) : Again, people wise, seems very nice place. But, Ireland seems less likely to be able to cope with PO?
Hence why me and missus are back in the UK.
Sure, Britain has a lot of problems... BUT given the other options that would be open to me...
Japan (get in there on a Spouse Visa initially) : In BAU world, Japan was very nice for nearly 3 years. Work has some downsides there (long, long, long hours), but rest of BAU Japan I really liked. BUT... BAU is not going to last. And then I then Japan is toast (which I find upsetting for my wife and all her family). Far for being self-sufficient. I suppose there's lots of old folk, who can die off to reduce the strain. But the youth of Japan are such an apathetic bunch (only difference between them and our youth is that they are nice and polite... but they still sponge off the older generation).
Australia : Posted there 3 months in Melbourne. Was quite nice... but with CC/GW, would not want to be there.
USA : NO CHANCE!
Iceland/Sweden/Norway : Language issues, otherwise, kinda appeals to me. That side... the idealised image of the country appeals to me, no idea what it's really like to live there.
Ireland (Eire) : Again, people wise, seems very nice place. But, Ireland seems less likely to be able to cope with PO?
Hence why me and missus are back in the UK.
Well that depends on you really doesn't it? What is important to you and what kind of society do you want to live in?Ok Jim
Im open to suggestions as where would be a better bet than the UK post PO but Im scratching my head as to where?
So where would be better and why?
Check the link wolfatthedoor posted. Should be everything you need there to start making a personal decision. Could be you aren't intimidated by language barriers, or you don't need to move to a place with fossil fuel reserves because you're happy to live a simple life farming using permaculture principals. You might want to rely on renewable technology etc etc.
I think the point is that this country doesn't have all that much going for it. It's not pushing for renewables, few grants availiable, draconian planning laws, it's overpopulated, oil and gas field are giving up, we rely heavily on imports, we don't have the skill base in our society of middle classes to easily remove our dependence on fossil fuels, our goverment seems hell bent on solving the problem with bombs & our housing stock is old and often unefficient.
On the plus side, we're not likely to suffer droughts (on the west coast anyway) although we may have destructive heavy rain bouts rather than more useful prolonged periods of light rain.
Last edited by SunnyJim on 16 Nov 2007, 15:44, edited 1 time in total.
Jim
For every complex problem, there is a simple answer, and it's wrong.
"Heaven and earth are ruthless, and treat the myriad creatures as straw dogs" (Lao Tzu V.i).
For every complex problem, there is a simple answer, and it's wrong.
"Heaven and earth are ruthless, and treat the myriad creatures as straw dogs" (Lao Tzu V.i).
logically Id say new zealand possibly australia or paraguay , I think the most likely outcome of peak oil is a fullscale nuclear war with a possible nuclear winter I would say the falklands as their distant from the areas that are likely to be hit worse but that may be a bit cold in the nuclear winter .
if you go to the above countrys you would only need a normal bunker to survive and say 5 to 20 years of supplys quite possible to do, if you stay in europe you would need to be about a 100 foot down in rock ,ok if you have access to a mine I suppose but more expensive and more work .
you would improve your chances with a normal nuclear shelter in the uk but its a bit risky as I see us as being a major target , for people staying in the uk I think you should look at making a nuclear shelter anyway because it could be we only get hit by the odd bomb or two no one knows whats going to happen
if nuclear war doesnt happen there are lots of places in eastern europe theres russia , portugal parts of france .
Im in two minds about going myself I like the uk and I dont have a wife or children so I may stay , I could get a second home in a better position my main worry are my friends and sister so it might be worth getting a place for them abroad
if you go to the above countrys you would only need a normal bunker to survive and say 5 to 20 years of supplys quite possible to do, if you stay in europe you would need to be about a 100 foot down in rock ,ok if you have access to a mine I suppose but more expensive and more work .
you would improve your chances with a normal nuclear shelter in the uk but its a bit risky as I see us as being a major target , for people staying in the uk I think you should look at making a nuclear shelter anyway because it could be we only get hit by the odd bomb or two no one knows whats going to happen
if nuclear war doesnt happen there are lots of places in eastern europe theres russia , portugal parts of france .
Im in two minds about going myself I like the uk and I dont have a wife or children so I may stay , I could get a second home in a better position my main worry are my friends and sister so it might be worth getting a place for them abroad
- tattercoats
- Posts: 433
- Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
- Location: Wiltshire
- Contact:
SunnyJim, I agree And if I could master quote tags from the whole discussion I'd be more detailed...
I do think that utility may in many cases overcome the natural prejudices of a population under pressure - by which I mean that in a contracting and threatened community, the first inclination will probably be to stick with one's own, however that is percieved.
Hopefully that will include all who have already *become* part of that community, rather than some race-driven subsection - but there will be situations in which people would rather welcome into their community a hard-working family from wherever with useful skills, than a bunch of do-nothings who happen to have been born in the same county or whatever.
Moral - become part of your community wherever you are. Make connections.
And yes, I think some fall in the population will happen through a number of diverse means, some of which will be very ... demographically focussed.
I do think that utility may in many cases overcome the natural prejudices of a population under pressure - by which I mean that in a contracting and threatened community, the first inclination will probably be to stick with one's own, however that is percieved.
Hopefully that will include all who have already *become* part of that community, rather than some race-driven subsection - but there will be situations in which people would rather welcome into their community a hard-working family from wherever with useful skills, than a bunch of do-nothings who happen to have been born in the same county or whatever.
Moral - become part of your community wherever you are. Make connections.
And yes, I think some fall in the population will happen through a number of diverse means, some of which will be very ... demographically focussed.
Green, political and narrative songs - contemporary folk from an award-winning songwriter and performer. Now booking 2011. Talis Kimberley ~ www.talis.net ~ also Bandcamp, FB etc...
quote="SunnyJim"]
end of suburbia the way america is put together is going to be a killer , also I think their going to be the most angry place on earth when they wake up to the end of oil and no transition .
America is on the way to dictatorship , possible race wars (if people start hunting down white and chinese people and burn down their own neighbourhoods because some cops beat a black guy what the hell do you think could happen when you have famine no cars no nothing and real hard times )
The american dream is big cars and a flash lifestyle to lots of people when that ends there is going be anger .
also your likely to see trouble with mexico
post on latoc there are lots of yanks there that think america is going to go crazy they might be wrong but they may well be right
Why? They have lots of land, and some areas are still very agricultural. Look at the way the Amish live.[/quote]USA : NO CHANCE!
end of suburbia the way america is put together is going to be a killer , also I think their going to be the most angry place on earth when they wake up to the end of oil and no transition .
America is on the way to dictatorship , possible race wars (if people start hunting down white and chinese people and burn down their own neighbourhoods because some cops beat a black guy what the hell do you think could happen when you have famine no cars no nothing and real hard times )
The american dream is big cars and a flash lifestyle to lots of people when that ends there is going be anger .
also your likely to see trouble with mexico
post on latoc there are lots of yanks there that think america is going to go crazy they might be wrong but they may well be right
- Totally_Baffled
- Posts: 2824
- Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
- Location: Hampshire
I have to say I have changed my mind on this question.
We are totally screwed in the UK, and to be honest I have now accepted that as a result of PO I will probably die prematurely of starvation, or being beaten death by a mob of angry hungry idiots whilst trying to defend my family.
Who on earth am I trying to kid? Society has gone tits up and we are richer than we have been.
Once the booze/drugs/ are taken away and people are on WWII type rations , how are the idiot brigade going to react .
I have just watched the Tonight program, and it was about PCSO's on the knowle west estate in Bristol. How depressing - gangs of moronic yougsters (and their parents in a lot of cases). I know this is a rough estate and they exist in any country, but everywhere I go I see this type.
Even in posh , middle class suburbs , people have no time for each other , are generally thick as shite and cannot think beyond their next beer.
I would love to leave - but I feel this is a devil and deep blue sea situation. I just do not have the resources or time to earn money in the pre peak world , whilst preparing for the post peak world.
As for food , yes its possible to feed 60 milllion (IMO). However, after a little research I find that even most of the seed we use comes from all over the world. Thats another resource we have to build up from scratch.
Besides we have no way of getting the workers to the farms and back to their homes again. If we set up camps by the farms - then where would we put them all, along with all the facilities like toilets and water?
The north sea is stuffed, it looks like that wont be producing anything after 2020. Especially when the supply chain for all the high tech stuff gets disrupted.
Nobody will trade with the UK as we will no doubt default on all the debt we have generated over the last 10 years.
I dont think many countries like us anymore either - the EU think we are a pain in the arse - and the US only uses us (who was it said , that the US doesnt have allies , it only has interests?)
Its game over the UK - good luck to you all - but lets face it we are totally stuffed.
Just pray for a quick death....
Our only hope is if we find something around the falkland islands, or we get some sort of hydrocarbon pay back from Kuwait or Iraq given our military protection over the last whatever years.
We are totally screwed in the UK, and to be honest I have now accepted that as a result of PO I will probably die prematurely of starvation, or being beaten death by a mob of angry hungry idiots whilst trying to defend my family.
Who on earth am I trying to kid? Society has gone tits up and we are richer than we have been.
Once the booze/drugs/ are taken away and people are on WWII type rations , how are the idiot brigade going to react .
I have just watched the Tonight program, and it was about PCSO's on the knowle west estate in Bristol. How depressing - gangs of moronic yougsters (and their parents in a lot of cases). I know this is a rough estate and they exist in any country, but everywhere I go I see this type.
Even in posh , middle class suburbs , people have no time for each other , are generally thick as shite and cannot think beyond their next beer.
I would love to leave - but I feel this is a devil and deep blue sea situation. I just do not have the resources or time to earn money in the pre peak world , whilst preparing for the post peak world.
As for food , yes its possible to feed 60 milllion (IMO). However, after a little research I find that even most of the seed we use comes from all over the world. Thats another resource we have to build up from scratch.
Besides we have no way of getting the workers to the farms and back to their homes again. If we set up camps by the farms - then where would we put them all, along with all the facilities like toilets and water?
The north sea is stuffed, it looks like that wont be producing anything after 2020. Especially when the supply chain for all the high tech stuff gets disrupted.
Nobody will trade with the UK as we will no doubt default on all the debt we have generated over the last 10 years.
I dont think many countries like us anymore either - the EU think we are a pain in the arse - and the US only uses us (who was it said , that the US doesnt have allies , it only has interests?)
Its game over the UK - good luck to you all - but lets face it we are totally stuffed.
Just pray for a quick death....
Our only hope is if we find something around the falkland islands, or we get some sort of hydrocarbon pay back from Kuwait or Iraq given our military protection over the last whatever years.
TB
Peak oil? ahhh smeg.....
Peak oil? ahhh smeg.....
Crikey TB - chin up mate.
I have not seen you this down before, probably having a tough week - it happens to the best of us.
Knowing what you know and being on top of the game with your finger on the pulse can count for an awful lot. The preparations you have already made will stand you in good stead, I am sure.
We all have choices...... You say you don't have the resources, but maybe you have more than you think? You could sell up and move into a quieter location maybe, in a rural environment. Learn the basics of a trade, general stuff that will be useful when things go down hill.
I am sure there are things that you could do to improve your lot.
Lets discuss this further........ we all need to support each other on here - so lets know what is bothering you specifically?
I have not seen you this down before, probably having a tough week - it happens to the best of us.
Knowing what you know and being on top of the game with your finger on the pulse can count for an awful lot. The preparations you have already made will stand you in good stead, I am sure.
We all have choices...... You say you don't have the resources, but maybe you have more than you think? You could sell up and move into a quieter location maybe, in a rural environment. Learn the basics of a trade, general stuff that will be useful when things go down hill.
I am sure there are things that you could do to improve your lot.
Lets discuss this further........ we all need to support each other on here - so lets know what is bothering you specifically?
Real money is gold and silver