Monbiot - Reappraisal at Heathrow

[Vortex]

Please, please, please ... can we NOT descend into the 9/11 rathole again ....

[Bozzio]

Please, please, please ... can we NOT descend into the 9/11 rathole again ....

I know, it's far too complex for you to understand and being one of the lazy ones I refer to previously, you still haven't bothered to appreciate the significance.

[Cabrone]

This years North pole ice melt looks quite dramatic, the minimum area of ice left after summer melting has been reasonably constant over the three decades but it has taken a large downturn (approx 20%) this year.

Looks like something exceptional has happened this year.

[/img]

[Vortex]

Please, please, please ... can we NOT descend into the 9/11 rathole again ....

I know, it's far too complex for you to understand and being one of the lazy ones I refer to previously, you still haven't bothered to appreciate the significance.

Hmm .. I seem to remember that I was the one who spent tons of my time to locate various technical research to demolish some of your more arcane theories. I made quite a few posts at the time. So "lazy" I don't think is quite correct.

I also recollect that you skittered away each time I knocked down one of your "truths" only to deploy yet another for me to "prove incorrect." That is typical cultist behaviour. Deploy nutty argument after nutty argument until you wear down the wicked person who dares to challenge THE TRUTH. You then "win" by default:
"The misguided fool folded when we asked him to prove that there wasn't an invisible bomb bolted to the planes' wings. That always gets The Unbelievers ... they simply KNOW in their very souls that they are beaten when we throw THAT incontrovertible evidence at them!"

I also get rather fed up with the usual cultish argument that I "read book XX" or "see video YYY" in order to become enlightened.

As for being "too complex for me to understand", well, I obviously stand in the presence of greatness. I also refer you to a comment YOU made some time ago:

I always think it is a shame when intelligent people post highly critical comments and then accuse the authors of the subsequent replies of having inferior minds. Personally I find that sort of behaviour to be highly immature.

Now to: "You still haven't bothered to appreciate the significance". I take that to mean that "You STILL don't agree with MY theories."

Well, sadly for you I think the whole 9/11 Truth Movement is a load of crap thought up & encouraged primarily by quite intelligent semi-autistic lonely teenage white middle-class males who have nothing better to do than roam the Web all day.

Sure, aspects of what happened on 9/11 are a bit dodgy ... but in any such disaster there will be a LOT of arse-covering going on ... but that doesn't get anywhere near being a Government controlled mega-conspiracy.

If you want to argue the point, fine .. but I suggest you start a dedicated 9/11 thread for that.

[syberberg]

Please, please, please ... can we NOT descend into the 9/11 rathole again ....

Agreed. All I'll say on the subject is the following: I've read the offical story, I've read the counter claims and made my own mind up.

@Bozzio: Don't put words into my mouth, thank you very much. Where did I say climate change will "destroy the planet"? I did not, I said it threatens the bioshpere. Which it does. PO merely threatens human industrial civilisation. Which it does. Clearly you are far more concerned about loosing your easy way of life, than the chance that humans, as a species, could become extinct (in the worse case scenario).

In the geological past there have been several mass extinction events. The Precambrian (600 million years ago) one appears to have been the result of glacial cooling and oxygen depeltion. It very nearly wiped out all life on earth, which at the time, was mainly micro-organisms. Then there was the Permian-Triassic extinction (251 million years ago), which wiped out 95% of the species on Earth and was most likely due to a rise in average global temperatures from a combination of flood vulcanism and the release of methane calthrates.

So, which is the more problematical; an event that threatens a civilisation, or one that threanens to cause a mass extinction event?

[Bozzio]

Please, please, please ... can we NOT descend into the 9/11 rathole again ....

I know, it's far too complex for you to understand and being one of the lazy ones I refer to previously, you still haven't bothered to appreciate the significance.

Hmm .. I seem to remember that I was the one who spent tons of my time to locate various technical research to demolish some of your more arcane theories. I made quite a few posts at the time. So "lazy" I don't think is quite correct.

I also recollect that you skittered away each time I knocked down one of your "truths" only to deploy yet another for me to "prove incorrect." That is typical cultist behaviour. Deploy nutty argument after nutty argument until you wear down the wicked person who dares to challenge THE TRUTH. You then "win" by default:
"The misguided fool folded when we asked him to prove that there wasn't an invisible bomb bolted to the planes' wings. That always gets The Unbelievers ... they simply KNOW in their very souls that they are beaten when we throw THAT incontrovertible evidence at them!"

I also get rather fed up with the usual cultish argument that I "read book XX" or "see video YYY" in order to become enlightened.

As for being "too complex for me to understand", well, I obviously stand in the presence of greatness. I also refer you to a comment YOU made some time ago:

I always think it is a shame when intelligent people post highly critical comments and then accuse the authors of the subsequent replies of having inferior minds. Personally I find that sort of behaviour to be highly immature.

Now to: "You still haven't bothered to appreciate the significance". I take that to mean that "You STILL don't agree with MY theories."

Well, sadly for you I think the whole 9/11 Truth Movement is a load of crap thought up & encouraged primarily by quite intelligent semi-autistic lonely teenage white middle-class males who have nothing better to do than roam the Web all day.

Sure, aspects of what happened on 9/11 are a bit dodgy ... but in any such disaster there will be a LOT of arse-covering going on ... but that doesn't get anywhere near being a Government controlled mega-conspiracy.

If you want to argue the point, fine .. but I suggest you start a dedicated 9/11 thread for that.

You twist the truth to suit yourself everytime. To be fair, you have in the past attempted more than most to knock me down but you failed at every hurdle which is why you gave up and please don't deny it just to trump up your own status. I notice that you still talk rubbish especially the bit about this subject being the domain of only bored, white, middle class teenage males. This just proves what little research you have bothered to do. If you care to look at some of the David Ray Griffin videos you'll see people of all ages and colours. Mr Griffin is himself in his late 60's. Your continued desire to stick your head in the sand and ignore the gravitas of this issue is very sad indeed but you're not alone which makes it even sadder.

Just to let you know, I did start a dedicated thread on this subject, only ignorant people like you couldn't see the relevance of the issue in association with peak oil so it was attacked.

Quite frankly, I don't care what you believe, you have already made your position clear on many times, it's just that when you feel fit to make vocal your dislike for this subject, as you did earlier today, it shows as usual, that you have no tolerance for other people's views so you feel justified in attempting to quash the discussions of others. Either make a proper effort to show the errors in my thinking or please be quiet.

And, next time you post an article or video about peak oil and climate change to enlighten us all, I should, by your twisted logic, ignore it. You really do speak nonsense some times. Maybe you'll only believe the Truth movement when GW comes out on national TV and says 9/11 was an inside job! Well I haven't seen one politician talk about PO on TV and yet you believe in PO. I wonder why?

Just as a retort to the silly cartoon you've added. Perhaps you'd care to look at the FBI's most wanted list. Mr bin Laden is on there and guess what, they don't even mention his connection with 9/11. Could it be because they have no proof? But this is not what the official story tells us. Strange that you accept this version of the conspiracy so easily. You are extremely gullible.

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/terbinladen.htm

[Bozzio]

Please, please, please ... can we NOT descend into the 9/11 rathole again ....

Agreed. All I'll say on the subject is the following: I've read the offical story, I've read the counter claims and made my own mind up.

@Bozzio: Don't put words into my mouth, thank you very much. Where did I say climate change will "destroy the planet"? I did not, I said it threatens the bioshpere. Which it does. PO merely threatens human industrial civilisation. Which it does. Clearly you are far more concerned about loosing your easy way of life, than the chance that humans, as a species, could become extinct (in the worse case scenario).

In the geological past there have been several mass extinction events. The Precambrian (600 million years ago) one appears to have been the result of glacial cooling and oxygen depeltion. It very nearly wiped out all life on earth, which at the time, was mainly micro-organisms. Then there was the Permian-Triassic extinction (251 million years ago), which wiped out 95% of the species on Earth and was most likely due to a rise in average global temperatures from a combination of flood vulcanism and the release of methane calthrates.

So, which is the more problematical; an event that threatens a civilisation, or one that threanens to cause a mass extinction event?

My easy life! So who is putting words into other people's mouths now. Grow up. You know nothing about me and the way I lead my life. Do you? That's typical of the global warming brigade; blame everyone else for the ills of the world except those in the developing countries who are burning coal at a rate of knots. I also find it highly hypocritical of you to claim that my cosy lifestyle is somehow going to destroy humanity forever and yet your cosy lifestyle leads you to dismiss the 9/11 truth movement because, let's face it, the killing of men, women and children in the illegal wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are not affecting you directly at this moment in time so why should you bother.

For your information, PO will likely cause us humans to use more coal and doubtless this will not be done in a way that will aid a reduction in CO2. If things do get tough, do you think people will sit in their homes and freeze during the winter or will they burn wood and coal bought locally? I think I know what will happen and I can see carbon emissions rising as a result. So for Monbiot to disassociate the connection between PO and climate change is irresponsible and a clear sign that he dismisses what he doesn't understand.

As for climate change causing mass extinction, this is pure speculation. You have no proof that this will happen and it's just scaremongering.

[kenneal - lagger]

As for climate change causing mass extinction, this is pure speculation. You have no proof that this will happen and it's just scaremongering.

Read Hansen et al's paper and see the quite logical and plausible reasoning behind his claims. His proof is at least on a level with your 9/11 proofs.

http://www.journals.royalsoc.ac.uk/cont ... ltext.html

I recommend downloading the pdf as it has the graphs and is easier to read.

[Vortex]

Bozzio, suppose you ARE right and George Bush personally laid explosives in the WTC and pressed the remote control to blow up the towers at EXACTLY the moment huge fuel filled airliners crashed into them .... SO WHAT?

If you can prove that this was a White House plot, what will you gain?

Bush and clan will be exposed as nasty people ... oops ... they are already hated, so no change there.

The war in Iraq will be exposed as being pointless ... but we ALREADY know that.

Perhaps it will be seen as a war inspired by the need for oil ... OK, Bush might gain an INCREASE in popularity for that. Taking hard decisions to protect the US way of life.

At the very worst, Bush and some others would be arrested and maybe executed. Nothing else would change.

So why are YOU so worked up about all this?
What will you gain, and what will society gain from all the effort you seem to put into disputing the official version of events?

You'll get to the Pearly Gates one day, and will be asked "What good things have you done in your life?"
Your answer of "Well, I was an active member of the 9/11 Truth Movement" will simply get you re-routed downstairs .. for wasting the limited number of hours that you were allocated on a pointless task.

Mind you, you will be in good company: The Big Brother viewers and the X-Factor viewers will be down there with you.

I really do believe that in say 20 years time you will look back on all this and will think "Why was I such a plank in wasting all that time on 9/11 tosh, when I could have been partying/travelling/studying/making money/having fun"

There are many thousands of 9/11 Truth Seekers out there already. They'll dig up any dirt if it is there to be found. They don't really need you. So why not avoid any later bitterness, by switching into fun mode TODAY ...

Stuff Peak Oil, Global Warming and 9/11 ... IT'S PARTY TIME !

[Bozzio]

Vortex,

If you can honestly say it will gain nothing then you are more a fool than I already think you are.

The very fact that I've posted only 330+ comments compared with your posts which total almost 1400 suggests that I spend my time doing things rather than discussing things. You remind me of John Cleese in 'The Life of Brian' when he acts the part of the head of the People's Front of Judea, never achieving anything because of his preference to discuss problems rather than act.

Incidently, the twin towers did not collapse at exactly the same time as they were hit by the aircraft. No wonder you're so confused. Your understanding of the official story is wrong.

By the way, I don't watch X-Factor or Big Brother, in fact I rarely watch TV.

[biffvernon]

Back to the important stuff...

This years North pole ice melt looks quite dramatic, the minimum area of ice left after summer melting has been reasonably constant over the three decades but it has taken a large downturn (approx 20%) this year.

Looks like something exceptional has happened this year.

Regular updates here:
http://nsidc.org/news/press/2007_seaice ... index.html

[Vortex]

You remind me of John Cleese in 'The Life of Brian' when he acts the part of the head of the People's Front of Judea, never achieving anything because of his preference to discuss problems rather than act.

OK, New York is a long way away, so you have to rely on "evidence" obtained via the Web etc.

However 7/7 was nearer, so the evidence is easier to find. I think that it was you who suggested that it was an MI5 / MI6 operation.

How have you "acted" in this specific case?

- Have you visited the sites of the explosions?
- Have you located construction diagrams for the carriages?
- Have you spoken to the police/victims/witnesses/journalists etc who were there on the day?
- Have you obtained a cross section of the tunnel?
- Have you reviewed the power & effects of the explosives used and/or the explosives you believe were used?
- Have you reviewed the various CCTV clips available?
- Have you reviewed every single word of the court evidence?
- Have you looked into the timelines in great detail?
- Have you tried to check the life histories of the various "players"?

If you have done any of the above, did you find any "oddities"?
If you HAVEN'T done any of the above then you are simply relying on surmise & rumour.

So again, I ask what meaningful ACTIONS have you taken towards revealing your version of The Truth?

(Handing out DVDs and posting on websites doesn't count!)

[syberberg]

Sorry about this folks, but Bozzio leaves me no other choice, I am going to have to respond...

Bozzio, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are affecting me indirectly. I have mates who are still in the Royal Marines who are/were still out there fighting a pointless campaign.

It's been enlightening watching you spout off as it says far more about your complete lack of mental control and self discipline. The fact that you support the 911 Truth Movement shows you have a remarkable lack of being able o grasp basic physics, metallurgy, have no idea about explosives whatsoever, no knowledge of structural engineering.

As for your comments about climate change not causing a mass extinction even, you are clearly showing your lack of education about the fragility of ecosystems. Here's a quote for you:

The speed at which species are being lost is much faster than any we've seen in the past -- including those [extinctions] related to meteor collisions.

I could provide a multitude of links, going back to 1998, all from reputable biologsits and scientits who are exprts in their respective fields, but it's fairly clear you wouldn't accept their findings as you only seem to accept the findings of people who aren't experts in anything other than the use of their imaginations.

My easy life! So who is putting words into other people's mouths now. Grow up. You know nothing about me and the way I lead my life. Do you?

So you have a life that's as harsh and uncompromising, as, say, the Kalahari Bushmen? And you've got a PC. And you've got the time to waste on 911. And you've got time to post stuff on the Net. Yeah, you've got a really hard life.

As for me growing up...already done that patrolling Hong Kong...or mabe I grew up in South Armagh, or possibly it was in Northern Iraq, Yasilova to be precise, helping the Kurds.

Also, it might help if you knew the difference between putting words into people's mouths and making an accusation. I accused you of being more concerned about loosing your easy way of life, I did not imply that that was what you had said.

It also might help your ever decreasing credability, if you could reamin consistant. First you say:

My easy life!...You know nothing about me and the way I lead my life.

Which would imply that you life a hard life without any of the benefits of modern industrialised civilistation, then you say this:

my cosy lifestyle is somehow going to destroy humanity forever.../

So, do you ahve a cosy lifestyle or not?

As for my cozy lifestyle, I'd be more than happy to give it up if it meant the survival of my species and a whole host of others. It might also help if you could actually pay attention to what I've actually said. I said potentially and in the worse case scenarios, I didn't say anything about it being a deffinate outcome. Oh look, you're putting words into my mouth, yet again. You just can't help yourself can you? You're almost as hypocricical as the vegan who claims to be saving the planet by not eating meat and then proceeds to wear PVC instead of leather.

Now, if you want to continue this via PM, instead of clogging up the boards with an exercise in futility, feel free. Otherwise, kindly STFU.

[clv101]

For your information, PO will likely cause us humans to use more coal and doubtless this will not be done in a way that will aid a reduction in CO2.

There aren?t the reserves/productive capacity to substitute the falling CO2 emissions due to peak oil with alternative sources of CO2 emissions. Peak oil correlates pretty closely with peak CO2 emissions in my opinion.

[kenneal - lagger]

For your information, PO will likely cause us humans to use more coal and doubtless this will not be done in a way that will aid a reduction in CO2.

There aren?t the reserves/productive capacity to substitute the falling CO2 emissions due to peak oil with alternative sources of CO2 emissions. Peak oil correlates pretty closely with peak CO2 emissions in my opinion.

Hanson is saying that anything over 1.5 deg C rise in temperature could cause dangerous warming because of feedback effects and we need to leave some of the oil in the ground let alone coal.