My children (two are now adults - just) know all about PO.
Our children ....
Moderator: Peak Moderation
Pippa -
Younger children are interesting when you tell them some of this PO stuff... they lap it up and then are quite likely to spout it out again to other kids' parents! (And perhaps not in the format that you told it!) Be warned!
Teenagers on the other hand have already developed the "my parents embarrass me" attitude that ensures they are only likely to re-spout the info if they want to illicit sympathy from their friends about the oddities of their weird parents! Be warned again!
Younger children are interesting when you tell them some of this PO stuff... they lap it up and then are quite likely to spout it out again to other kids' parents! (And perhaps not in the format that you told it!) Be warned!
Teenagers on the other hand have already developed the "my parents embarrass me" attitude that ensures they are only likely to re-spout the info if they want to illicit sympathy from their friends about the oddities of their weird parents! Be warned again!
Sally
Thanks for those thoughts.
The thing that brought me to PS forum in the first place was trying to work out how I would be able to tell my kids the truth whilst still preserving their sense of purpose. Having children was such a selfish desire and I sort of think that if people can't have them then that's lucky (a view which is very easily mis-construed in public I have found! ).
I really would hate to be a teacher these days because so much goes against starting with the whole bollxk*s thing of written evidence and tick box for the teaching record to the must have society and mis-information coming from the government that says that over 50% of the school population should have university education in the first place!!!!!!
Just about the most offensive and destructive thing which I have found about learning about all this climate change, debt, population, green revolution, resource depletion stuff is that on realising just how much trouble we have got ourselves in I was expecting my husband and mother to agree when I brought this critical subject to their attention.
It never occured to me for one moment that I would be so comprehensibly and consistantly pushed away whenever or however I attempted to re-introduce the subject into the public (ie family) domain. On reflection, I think that this is why I have been so, so very sensitive about talking openly to my kids about what is really happening in the world today. Still, I can see that the time has come and that putting off speaking openly about the way I see things helps no-one.
I hear your words of caution. I'll tread carefully but firmly in what I believe to be the right direction.
Anyway, whenever I'm not sure about the way to proceed for the best I can always fall back on planting seeds; nothing better than the great outdoors don't you think?
Thanks for those thoughts.
The thing that brought me to PS forum in the first place was trying to work out how I would be able to tell my kids the truth whilst still preserving their sense of purpose. Having children was such a selfish desire and I sort of think that if people can't have them then that's lucky (a view which is very easily mis-construed in public I have found!
).I really would hate to be a teacher these days because so much goes against starting with the whole bollxk*s thing of written evidence and tick box for the teaching record to the must have society and mis-information coming from the government that says that over 50% of the school population should have university education in the first place!!!!!!
Just about the most offensive and destructive thing which I have found about learning about all this climate change, debt, population, green revolution, resource depletion stuff is that on realising just how much trouble we have got ourselves in I was expecting my husband and mother to agree when I brought this critical subject to their attention.
It never occured to me for one moment that I would be so comprehensibly and consistantly pushed away whenever or however I attempted to re-introduce the subject into the public (ie family) domain. On reflection, I think that this is why I have been so, so very sensitive about talking openly to my kids about what is really happening in the world today. Still, I can see that the time has come and that putting off speaking openly about the way I see things helps no-one.
I hear your words of caution. I'll tread carefully but firmly in what I believe to be the right direction.
Anyway, whenever I'm not sure about the way to proceed for the best I can always fall back on planting seeds; nothing better than the great outdoors don't you think?
Okay, I will wade in here and also express/advise caution.
When I told my kids about Peak Oil, I began to feel I was robbing them of their future, their optomism, their delight (as kids have) in the what the future would bring.
My then 16 year old, responded some days later, "What's the point in studying for my GCSE's?" I knew then I had gone too far and I immediately started to backtrack with, "well it may not turn out as bad as I have indicated.... nobody can predict the future, we can just say how we think it is likely to be, we "might" find a solution....", blah, blah, blah.
I could say a lot more but I don't want to bore people. Also I don't want my kids being so embarressed with their Dad, because he is so off the edge.....
But as a final word, introduce the ideas and concerns gently and carefully, don't scare them to bits. Even though their future may not be as good as we had, we don't necessarily have to spell it out out in black and white and all its bleakness.....
When I told my kids about Peak Oil, I began to feel I was robbing them of their future, their optomism, their delight (as kids have) in the what the future would bring.
My then 16 year old, responded some days later, "What's the point in studying for my GCSE's?" I knew then I had gone too far and I immediately started to backtrack with, "well it may not turn out as bad as I have indicated.... nobody can predict the future, we can just say how we think it is likely to be, we "might" find a solution....", blah, blah, blah.
I could say a lot more but I don't want to bore people. Also I don't want my kids being so embarressed with their Dad, because he is so off the edge.....
But as a final word, introduce the ideas and concerns gently and carefully, don't scare them to bits. Even though their future may not be as good as we had, we don't necessarily have to spell it out out in black and white and all its bleakness.....
Real money is gold and silver
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kenneal - lagger
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Hi! Sally and Snow
There is a saying that "you can't take an education away from a person." All education, I've found, is useful, you just never know when.
If you can guide your children into a more technical education, say some form of basic engineering, or if they aren't academically biased, into a building trade, you can set them up for the future. People who can make things, and enjoy doing it, and who can understand how things are designed and made, will always have a future.
Our education system has robbed a couple of generations of the joys of making things. People are pushed onto an academic path whether they like it or not. I was lucky to have a general engineering education, after O Levels, doing OND and then HND in Civil Engineering. On the OND we did basic manual stuff like plumbing, using lead, iron and copper piping, bricklaying, carpentry, electrics, and more academic subjects like mechanical and structural engineering, electrical engineering, surveying, fluid mechanics and a few others I can't remember. At the time I wondered what we needed all this stuff for, but over the years most of it has come in useful at some time. Or it has helped me understand how things work, or why they don't, and how to mend them.
My wife and I were involved in a "pyramid selling" scheme for a couple of years with Amway. They did loads of sales training and personal motivation which has helped us in selling the produce of our small holding. It also helped us keep the motivation to persevere through a very hard time while we applied for planning permission for our house. An education which was not used for the original purpose but came in useful never the less.
Help your children by showing them that their education won't be wasted. They need to know the basics to understand more complicated stuff later. If their teachers aren't telling them what the things they are learning can be used for, try to do it yourself. I always found that I could learn things if I knew what they would be useful for. So try to show your children that. I had a maths teacher who tried to teach calculus as a mechanical process and never showed us why it would be useful. I never understood or learned the mechanics of calculus and it buggered my engineering education for quite a while.
When Peak Oil hits hard people who can make and mend, who understand how and why things work, will always get through life more easily than those who don't or can't. You've told them why they will need an education, Peak Oil, now tell then what they will need to use it for.
After I read this thread a couple of days ago, I had a conversation with my daughter about the design of their future house. I tried to explain that PO would make it a necessity reduce energy use as much a possible and that the semi detached design I was proposing would be more economic than a detached. She was not convinced about the design reasoning or the severity or imminence of PO so I left it. I will revisit the subject again another time and just drip feed the ideas.
I have been trying to get them to watch the various CDs I've bought from Powerswitch, without luck so far. I''ll get there in the end. She and her husband are already half way there, living and working on our small holding. They just need to be guided a little further on the way.
Lecture over. Sorry!!
There is a saying that "you can't take an education away from a person." All education, I've found, is useful, you just never know when.
If you can guide your children into a more technical education, say some form of basic engineering, or if they aren't academically biased, into a building trade, you can set them up for the future. People who can make things, and enjoy doing it, and who can understand how things are designed and made, will always have a future.
Our education system has robbed a couple of generations of the joys of making things. People are pushed onto an academic path whether they like it or not. I was lucky to have a general engineering education, after O Levels, doing OND and then HND in Civil Engineering. On the OND we did basic manual stuff like plumbing, using lead, iron and copper piping, bricklaying, carpentry, electrics, and more academic subjects like mechanical and structural engineering, electrical engineering, surveying, fluid mechanics and a few others I can't remember. At the time I wondered what we needed all this stuff for, but over the years most of it has come in useful at some time. Or it has helped me understand how things work, or why they don't, and how to mend them.
My wife and I were involved in a "pyramid selling" scheme for a couple of years with Amway. They did loads of sales training and personal motivation which has helped us in selling the produce of our small holding. It also helped us keep the motivation to persevere through a very hard time while we applied for planning permission for our house. An education which was not used for the original purpose but came in useful never the less.
Help your children by showing them that their education won't be wasted. They need to know the basics to understand more complicated stuff later. If their teachers aren't telling them what the things they are learning can be used for, try to do it yourself. I always found that I could learn things if I knew what they would be useful for. So try to show your children that. I had a maths teacher who tried to teach calculus as a mechanical process and never showed us why it would be useful. I never understood or learned the mechanics of calculus and it buggered my engineering education for quite a while.
When Peak Oil hits hard people who can make and mend, who understand how and why things work, will always get through life more easily than those who don't or can't. You've told them why they will need an education, Peak Oil, now tell then what they will need to use it for.
After I read this thread a couple of days ago, I had a conversation with my daughter about the design of their future house. I tried to explain that PO would make it a necessity reduce energy use as much a possible and that the semi detached design I was proposing would be more economic than a detached. She was not convinced about the design reasoning or the severity or imminence of PO so I left it. I will revisit the subject again another time and just drip feed the ideas.
I have been trying to get them to watch the various CDs I've bought from Powerswitch, without luck so far. I''ll get there in the end. She and her husband are already half way there, living and working on our small holding. They just need to be guided a little further on the way.
Lecture over. Sorry!!
Hey Kenneal - that was not percieved as a lecture! I agree with what you say whole-heartedly!
My kids do know about PO (I am very poor at keeping my thoughts to myself
). The comments above were intended as a wry observation of how they would communicate the message themselves - not as a caution against telling them.
I agree about the university thing these days. My OH and I both have hons degrees and post graduate stuff too - but I'm not sure it makes us any better than our many friends who left school after O levels. My son is doing an apprenticeship rather than A levels because he is a practical young man with a desire to make and do things rather than study. I'm all for that.
I teach in FE. My students are all from the type that left school with out the desired GCSEs or A levels required for Uni - and Uni is what they all want. I help them get there...... in some cases. In others I watch the painful process of their realisation that Uni is not for everyone as they seem to have been sold....
Oh and I have a hard time not mentioning oil usage & it's demise whenever topics such as the carbon cycle, photosynthesis, population curves etc etc. come up.... Of course I can't push that message too far in my capacity of teacher, but I can lay emphasis on certain things (and have being doing so long before I heard the term PO!)
Some of my best teachers were a tad eccentric..... I use this as my excuse!
All life experience is useful in the future - I too did the direct sales and team building thing for a while. I wouldn't go back there now, but as you say there was alot to learn along the way.
Yet on the PO front, my family still lives in the real world. We may be doing some extra things, but we still drive cars, go to work, buy plastic stuff that we think we need and so on.
Change from within the system is much better accepted than radical revision and withdrawal from the current norms.
And that was a round about way of saying I think we are all agreeing with each other really.
My kids do know about PO (I am very poor at keeping my thoughts to myself
). The comments above were intended as a wry observation of how they would communicate the message themselves - not as a caution against telling them.I agree about the university thing these days. My OH and I both have hons degrees and post graduate stuff too - but I'm not sure it makes us any better than our many friends who left school after O levels. My son is doing an apprenticeship rather than A levels because he is a practical young man with a desire to make and do things rather than study. I'm all for that.
I teach in FE. My students are all from the type that left school with out the desired GCSEs or A levels required for Uni - and Uni is what they all want. I help them get there...... in some cases. In others I watch the painful process of their realisation that Uni is not for everyone as they seem to have been sold....
Oh and I have a hard time not mentioning oil usage & it's demise whenever topics such as the carbon cycle, photosynthesis, population curves etc etc. come up.... Of course I can't push that message too far in my capacity of teacher, but I can lay emphasis on certain things (and have being doing so long before I heard the term PO!)
Some of my best teachers were a tad eccentric..... I use this as my excuse!
All life experience is useful in the future - I too did the direct sales and team building thing for a while. I wouldn't go back there now, but as you say there was alot to learn along the way.
Yet on the PO front, my family still lives in the real world. We may be doing some extra things, but we still drive cars, go to work, buy plastic stuff that we think we need and so on.
Change from within the system is much better accepted than radical revision and withdrawal from the current norms.
And that was a round about way of saying I think we are all agreeing with each other really.
Rob Hopkins has been taking the message into school:
http://transitionculture.org/2007/05/18 ... o-schools/
http://transitionculture.org/2007/05/18 ... o-schools/
I've found the best way to do this is watch them myself, when others are around in earshot. They'll tend to pop in and take interest, occasionally.kenneal wrote:I have been trying to get them to watch the various CDs.....
Olduvai Theory (Updated) (Reviewed)
Easter Island - a warning from history : http://dieoff.org/page145.htm
Easter Island - a warning from history : http://dieoff.org/page145.htm
From that Rob Hopkins link, "Your task for the next 10 minutes is to find at least one thing in this room that is not made using oil. "
"This led to lively discussions around what was and what wasn?t made of oil? the only three things one group could come up with were ?ourselves, hair, and the water in that jug?."
Wow! I think this would get the ball rolling with any group of people from about 10 years old upwards (to 100!)
It should be a mandatory class for one period every week in all schools starting yesterday - but of course it never will be.
"This led to lively discussions around what was and what wasn?t made of oil? the only three things one group could come up with were ?ourselves, hair, and the water in that jug?."
Wow! I think this would get the ball rolling with any group of people from about 10 years old upwards (to 100!)
It should be a mandatory class for one period every week in all schools starting yesterday - but of course it never will be.
Real money is gold and silver
I've done similar exercise with teenagers re things not made using oil.
However one kid pointed out that the natural wood I suggested was in fact varnished and had definately not been cut by hand. Water wasn't mentioned but I'm sure self same kid would have debunked the water notion with comment on pipes etc. to get it to us.
Actually I came away quite entertained after this excercise by the fact it was the kids that did the major debunking of some of the things I suggested may be natural!
Lessons are fun - you just never know the route they will take. And nothing I teach twice ever runs exactly the same way twice.
However one kid pointed out that the natural wood I suggested was in fact varnished and had definately not been cut by hand. Water wasn't mentioned but I'm sure self same kid would have debunked the water notion with comment on pipes etc. to get it to us.
Actually I came away quite entertained after this excercise by the fact it was the kids that did the major debunking of some of the things I suggested may be natural!
Lessons are fun - you just never know the route they will take. And nothing I teach twice ever runs exactly the same way twice.
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J. R. Ewing
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I can't understand how debt will be a real problem when a major crisis hits? The reason I give for this, is that so many people are in debt now and will never get out of the debt. So what can be done when the major energy crisis hits? Surely they won't have enough prison to house non payers and surely thousands maybe millions can't be kickd out of their home, as these homes will just become unocupied as there will be no one and probably no benefits agency to fill them up anyway. All I see is a complete collapse of the economy and world economy and the only thing that can be done then is to build a new infrastucture, if that's possible.Adam1 wrote:In the end, it's their lives. They probably are taking it in on some level. I would be more concerned if they were clocking up huge debts. It's always possible to change career but a large debt is harder to shed.