Looks like Lybia is about to fall to hard line Islamists

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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

biffvernon wrote:You'd better hope it happens before you are 80. ;)
I presume you think you're really clever because it is so easy to refute what I said about withdrawing age-related healthcare for the over 80s because, obviously, when I get to 80 I'll change my mind.

This involves an implied assumption that

(a) I'm a hypocrite.
(b) I'm a fool, because I haven't considered that when/if I get to 80 I will change my mind.

I'm actually neither, and would not have said what I said unless I meant it, and had thought through the consequences, including the fact that I may one day get to 80 myself. In short, you're acting like a clever-dick based on an assumption that I am as big a fool and hypocrite as you are. I'm not.
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biffvernon
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Post by biffvernon »

No, I just found what you said about withdrawing age-related healthcare for the over 80s not very nice.
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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

biffvernon wrote:No, I just found what you said about withdrawing age-related healthcare for the over 80s not very nice.
In an age of depleted resources and overpopulation hard decisions have to be taken. Hard decisions that you consistently avoid by dallying in idealism.

This is precisely the same problem I have had with you over and over again. As usual, I'm trying to deal with hard realities, and you are trying to take the moral high ground but doing so in a way which avoids those hard realities.

Anyone can take the moral high ground if their proposed policies depend on God or Father Christmas intervening in the physical world to save us, endless economic growth in a finite physical world, or every human on Earth suddenly behaving like a saint. Meanwhile, back in reality, the day may well come when in order to save resources for healthcare for young people with many decades of life ahead of them, we have to restrict the amount of money we spend treating age-related diseases in people who are already very old and guaranteed to die soon anyway.

Do you think triage is "not very nice"? Welcome to reality, Biff Vernon. Oh, sorry, what was I thinking... :roll:
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RenewableCandy
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Post by RenewableCandy »

A similar, and far sadder, dilemma arises at the other end of life: babies born at 24 weeks can now be "saved" by medical intervention. The loving care and technical expertise lavished on the little babies almost always only results in giving them (and their parents) a lousy quality of life, though.

I really don't have any answers. But at least an 80 year old person can, if they wish, give consent to well you get the idea (I heard the correct phrase to use is "I want no more pain"), whereas a 16-week-early baby isn't exactly in a position to make an informed decision about whether to give life a go.
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Post by Little John »

I do accept fully that we are going to have to ration healthcare and a lot more besides. However, I am completely creeped out by and against the state being involved things like euthanasia. Far better for the state to just come out and baldly put the hard options to the people. I'm pretty sure that people would make the right choices. That is to say, if it was clear that extensive healthcare intervention in the, say, over 75s meant that significant healthcare intervention was not available for working people with families in, say, their 30s people would choose to direct those resources at the 30 year olds.

In which case, the inevitable question arises as to why our governments are not putting those hard choices to people and are, instead, bringing in euthanasia by the back door via the sinisterly entitled "Liverpool End of Life Care Pathway" (which has now been dropped due to a public backlash. See http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013 ... ent-review), or by simply quietly (in other words, undemocratically and unaccountably) reducing the types of treatment and extent of treatments available. Not to mention, covertly extending waiting times via various ruses.

I think the reasons for the above are twofold. Firstly, national politicians are basically cowards and don't want to be the first to give the bad news to people. Secondly, if they did give the bad news, people would only accept it if it was accompanied by a more general massive redistribution of power and wealth from the top of society to the rest. Back to that old "we're all in this together" issue.

And we all know our political class will do anything to avoid that prospect. So utterly infiltrated and corrupted are they by those who hold all the wealth and power. Indeed, it's all but impossible to tell the pigs from the farmers these days. They are more or less one and the same, at least in terms of the top political decision makers.
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biffvernon
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Post by biffvernon »

stevecook172001 wrote:I do accept fully that we are going to have to ration healthcare and a lot more besides.
Maybe we could ration the 'lot more besides' first. Healthcare comes a very long way down my list of what to do without. In fact, right at the bottom, since without caring for one's health all one needs is the funeral director. And I'd be past caring about him.
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Post by snow hope »

Getting back on topic!

It looks like ISIS are trying to wipe historical sites by bombing them...... I find that pretty sad.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/31/world ... .html?_r=0
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