‘Big Brother’ in your fridge

[clv101]

I doubt they'll be any signification cost for new appliances. It would only be a simple bit of hardware and a few lines of code.

Retrofitting is unlikely.

[adam2]

Agree, should be cheap and simple.
Note this is not rationing or reducing energy use, which is a seperate issue.
The same amount of energy is consumed, but some consumption is postponned for a few minutes.
If a large power station breaks, then short term demand control gives a few minutes leeway to allow for the starting of gas turbine plant, or increasing electricity production in other ways.

At present if demand exceeds supply then load is shed automaticly by blacking out large areas of the country.
To ensure that this is a very rare event, the national grid keep a "regulating reserve" of plant that is not fully loaded but can quickly increase production. This costs both capital costs (building expensive plant that is not normally fully utilised) and extra running costs (fuel burnt less efficiently, and a full staff needed for part load operation)

Note also that the response of the appliance is automatic in response to low grid frequency, it is not done by "big brother" sitting in an office and deciding whom to cut off.

[PS_RalphW]

I performa similar demand control manually when I encounter a local power cut.

I go round turning off lights, kettles etc., that where on when the power goes off, leaving one ligtht on so that I notice when power is restored.

All too often, when power is restored, demand instantly ramps up beyond what it was when it was cut, because all the consuming appliances have been left on, and fidges and freezers have warmed up, and electricly heated rooms on a thermostat have cooled down, etc., and this immediately trips out the power again.

It gets very irritating and can damage appliances, computers, etc.

[biffvernon]

DD is good. Be on the side of history.

We could also have dynamic pricing, the price per unit constantly varying with daylight, windspeed nukes going band etc. We could have a little display panel in our homes showing the current price with a warning light and bleeper at consumer set levels of price.

(Actually I first suggested this a few decades ago.)

[Little John]

Underlying all of these bright ideas is an unspoken assumption about the essential goodness and long-term stability/sustainability of our social, economic and political systems. In other words, such technologies will only be of practical use and will only be resistant to iniquitous manipulation by powerful vested interests for so long as there is a stable social, economic and political system in which to operate.

There wont be.

You only have to look at what is happening right now in terms of the rapid concentration of wealth into an ever smaller set of hands as soon as things have begun to look even slightly flakey. What do you suppose its going to be like in ten years time and beyond? Do you really suppose that in the kind of future we have coming down the pipe that these kinds of technologies will not be used inappropriately. As the state progressively hollows out it's provision of services whilst simultaneously beefs up its tools of surveillance and suppression the last thing any of us should be wishing for is any kind of technology that invades our privacy. how, where and why I consume is a private matter and if the state needs to intervene to limit my consumption for the common good, as I well understand may be necessary, then it needs to be done in a manner that is as distant from me personally as possible.

Fundamentally, I consider a belief in these kinds of systems betrays an essential faith in the continuance BAU being possible, albeit with some serious tweaks.

It wont be possible.

[biffvernon]

Well, we're more likely to be able to use fridges in ten years time if we find ways to match demand to supply without excessive rationing by price. And that means using the generating capacity to best effect.

[Little John]

Well, we're more likely to be able to use fridges in ten years time if we find ways to match demand to supply without excessive rationing by price. And that means using the generating capacity to best effect.

I wouldn't disagree with any of that. The only area where we differ is on how it might be best achieved.

[clv101]

How it might be best achieved? No one has ever suggested to me a better way than DD. I don't regard a dial with real time pricing on the wall practical. There is no privacy issue. DD is not smart meters. There is no interruption to your household or even the individual socket.

A DD enabled fridge is analogous to a compact fluorescent light bulb. Same energy service for less demand. Where demand isn't just the kWh magnitude but also respects the fact the 'cost' (in the broadest sense) of generation of kWh varies with time.

I think your criticism of DD is in part due to lumping other, more nefarious things in with DD.

DD is not the state intervening to limit your consumption. Your consumption of energy services remains unchanged with DD. Show me another form of rationing (price, quotas, rotas) etc that can do better?[/i]

[biffvernon]

I don't regard a dial with real time pricing on the wall practical.

Not practical, but fun, at least at first.

[Little John]

How it might be best achieved? No one has ever suggested to me a better way than DD. I don't regard a dial with real time pricing on the wall practical. There is no privacy issue. DD is not smart meters. There is no interruption to your household or even the individual socket.

A DD enabled fridge is analogous to a compact fluorescent light bulb. Same energy service for less demand. Where demand isn't just the kWh magnitude but also respects the fact the 'cost' (in the broadest sense) of generation of kWh varies with time.

I think your criticism of DD is in part due to lumping other, more nefarious things in with DD.

DD is not the state intervening to limit your consumption. Your consumption of energy services remains unchanged with DD. Show me another form of rationing (price, quotas, rotas) etc that can do better?[/i]

An allocation of energy per capita metered at your door.

For example, lets say that each citizen is allocated X units of domestic energy per given period of time and that a given household contains four citizens. Therefore, the total allocation of energy for that household is X*4*given-time-period. This allocation is simply metered as it enters the house. When the amount allocated is exceeded, the supply is cut off (with certain obvious exceptions such as the elderly or sick) until more units are accrued. Such a system could also be sufficiently flexible so as to allow people to "save up" their energy units due to limiting their consumption over a given time period such that they have a surfeit of energy in the following period. They may choose to do the above for any number of reasons (upcoming major house DIY etc). The point is, none of this needs to be micro-predicted or micro-managed since citizens can arrange their own consumption habits for themselves within the overall consumption limits that are set.

All of the above is far simpler to implement and manage than having to ensure that all privately produced products are all fitted with fully compliant and comparable dynamic demand adjusters. It simply requires some pretty low-level meter technology at the point of entry in to each house. Such a system also has the added advantage of being reasonably blind to wealth and influence. If you are one citizen, you are entitled to one citizen's domestic allocation of energy.

[clv101]

Steve, your proposal is worse than Dynamic Demand. Remember Dynamic Demand doesn't change your provision of energy service at all. No cut offs, no saving up allocation... you can just continue to keep your milk cool as before.

Metering technology at the point of entry of the house is worse and more likely to be abused in the ways you outlined above than DD.

Have a read of the proposal here: http://www.dynamicdemand.co.uk/

[Little John]

Steve, your proposal is worse than Dynamic Demand. Remember Dynamic Demand doesn't change your provision of energy service at all. No cut offs, no saving up allocation... you can just continue to keep your milk cool as before.

Metering technology at the point of entry of the house is worse and more likely to be abused in the ways you outlined above than DD.

Have a read of the proposal here: http://www.dynamicdemand.co.uk/

I'd be interested to hear how a universal domestic energy credit allocation whose level is transparently set and is based on a simple per capita calculation is more open to be abused than DD.

Also, I have read the site you mention and it doesn't tell me anything about this technology that I had not already worked out. It's premise is, after all, pretty simple. Namely, that the decision as to when and how certain energy consuming products will consume energy is taken out of the hands of the consumer and is, instead, decided elsewhere. I object to this on principle because, at best, it infantilises consumers who are perfectly capable of managing their own consumption if a clear limit is set on that consumption and they are made clearly aware if it in advance. At worst, it is too open to economic abuse by those with relatively greater power and/or wealth. That is to say, in the coming energy scarce future, it does nothing to address iniquitous consumption of energy by those who can afford to be profligate whilst, at the same time, it places limits on the consumption of those who are not in such a position. If domestic energy consumption is to be rationed, as it must be, then it must be done equitably and transparently and the simplest and most libertarian way to do that is to transparently allocate each citizen with a given amount of domestic energy credits at point of entry. It's simple, it's fair and it allows people to be entirely free to decide how and when to consume that energy within the overall limits of the energy allocation.

It even occurs to me that if a given consumer decided to forgo using all of their energy credits in a given period, they could expect a rebate either in cash, in the form of extra credits available in the upcoming time period or in kind in the form of free energy credits within the normal credit allocation in the upcoming time period.

All of the above is the point I am getting at. Instead of infantilising consumers by taking consumption decisions out of their hands, it allows and encourages them to make informed and adult choices within real and pragmatic constraints that are set on an equitable basis with everyone else. It may well be very likely that under such a scheme, many consumers would choose to purchase products with built-in DD and/or other demand reducing technologies as it would be clearly in their interests to do so.

But, that would be their decision to make.

[AndySir]

I've been infantilised by my thermostat - taking decisions about the temperature of my house of out my hands. And input output libraries, too 'choosing' on my behalf what data I read from my disk drive. I'm more than capable of selecting the data I was to read one hex at a time. And come to think of it I'm not wildly happy about the whole concept of fuses either. Who are they to decide what an 'excessive' current is? Down with this sort of thing.

[biffvernon]

Clearly we need both DD and TEQ.

[Little John]

I've been infantilised by my thermostat - taking decisions about the temperature of my house of out my hands. And input output libraries, too 'choosing' on my behalf what data I read from my disk drive. I'm more than capable of selecting the data I was to read one hex at a time. And come to think of it I'm not wildly happy about the whole concept of fuses either. Who are they to decide what an 'excessive' current is? Down with this sort of thing.

You can adjust, override or, even remove your thermostat if you so choose. That may may or may not be wise, either financially or in terms of heating system stability but it is your choce. You can choose what data to put on your drive, what type of drive to use ect. Fuses are there as a safety device, primarily because other people as well as yourself will be using the products protected by those fuses; people who did not choose to be unprotected. Therrfore, there is a clear health and safety issue and clear liability to others.

These are all red herrings.