The future of money

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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

biffvernon wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote: With the greatest respect, this thread is supposed to be about what is an appropriate form of money for the future of civilisation, NOT about gold mining. I understand your concerns, but you are concentrating on what is at best a side-issue and ignoring the main point of the thread, as explained in the opening post.
Ok but the thread title is the future of money, and I'd like to see future money based not an a metal that is more ornament than use, is dangerous to find and that we already have tonnes of that is being used for nothing practical. We've moved on from the Bronze Age and have become smart enough to invent Bitcoins that don't even involve anyone cutting so much as a piece of turf.
You are still missing the point, in a major way, Biff. :(
Let's talk about how virtual money can be made a safe and secure store of value and medium of exchange.


What use is "virtual money" in a real world where most people can't afford computers anymore?
"We fail to mandate economic sanity because our brains are addled by....compassion." (Garrett Hardin)
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emordnilap
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Post by emordnilap »

stumuzz wrote:Have a look in the films, books section where I posted a short film 'the wizard of oz' a couple of years ago.

It will answer all your questions.
It's The Secret of Oz, by the way. It's a little long and Bill Still is not the most professional of presenters (the two are related criticisms!) but it is worth watching nonetheless as it does answer many questions.

The basic conclusion, which makes absolute sense, is that governments and an independent central bank, both of which are accountable to the population, create and spend as much money as is necessary. No-one else is allowed to do so. No interest is charged. Money is taxed out of existence (if necessary) once it has done its job.

Also, if private banks (or whatever) want to loan whatever money they have on deposit and charge interest, fine.
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
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Post by Little John »

UndercoverElephant wrote:
biffvernon wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote: With the greatest respect, this thread is supposed to be about what is an appropriate form of money for the future of civilisation, NOT about gold mining. I understand your concerns, but you are concentrating on what is at best a side-issue and ignoring the main point of the thread, as explained in the opening post.
Ok but the thread title is the future of money, and I'd like to see future money based not an a metal that is more ornament than use, is dangerous to find and that we already have tonnes of that is being used for nothing practical. We've moved on from the Bronze Age and have become smart enough to invent Bitcoins that don't even involve anyone cutting so much as a piece of turf.
You are still missing the point, in a major way, Biff. :(
Let's talk about how virtual money can be made a safe and secure store of value and medium of exchange.


What use is "virtual money" in a real world where most people can't afford computers anymore?
The thing to understand with Biffernon is that he actually not only quite likes the current system because he has not done too badly by it, thank you very much, but that he also thinks it is possible to continue with it, with some tweaks. None of which are not going to seriously inconvenience him you understand.

Once you view all of his posts with the above in mind, they all make perfect and consistent sense.
Last edited by Little John on 28 Mar 2013, 17:38, edited 1 time in total.
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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

stevecook172001 wrote:The thing to understand with Biffernon, is that he actually not only quite likes the current system because he has not done too badly by it thank you very much, but that he also thinks it is possible to continue with it, with some tweaks, none of which are not going to seriously inconvenience him you understand.
Yep.

I don't use the word "hypocrite" lightly. And if Biff was the sort of person who doesn't care about ethical standards, the hypocrisy wouldn't matter quite so much.
"We fail to mandate economic sanity because our brains are addled by....compassion." (Garrett Hardin)
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RenewableCandy
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Post by RenewableCandy »

Anyone remember that news about the suspicions that the gold at Fort Knox was debased (with Tungsten iirc)?? There's a Tungsten mine near where RenewableGrandmaman used to live :)

In days of yore, of course, there were lots of different types of money, depending on what you intended to do with it. There were pennies for everyday-type stuff and other currency for buying land or making savings. We still have (in theory) Pounds and Guineas(sp?), when I was young the latter were still being used to buy horses (for example).
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biffvernon
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Post by biffvernon »

UndercoverElephant wrote:
What use is "virtual money" in a real world where most people can't afford computers anymore?
Sorry, I didn't mean 'virtual' money in the computer sense, like bitcoins. That would be no use in a world without universal computers, as you say. No. I meant 'virtual' as in the case of a money that is not backed by stuff that needs digging up like gold. IOUs are fine - that's what those fancy sheets of paper with a message saying "I promise to pay the bearer..." on them are. Except that, as we have seen, they are not quite fine.

David Fleming, in Lean Logic, has a good deal to say about money. He concludes the several pages thus "Deference crowds in with every sweep of the broom intended to get rid of it. This dominant, expert, sycophantic, infantile vision, seeing only monetary value, and full of certainty that it is true, eats its way through the human ecology."

And of course Mark Boyle has written the Moneyless Man, a jolly good read.

We need a paradigm shift in our thinking to equip ourselves for the future.
Little John

Post by Little John »

biffvernon wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote:
What use is "virtual money" in a real world where most people can't afford computers anymore?
Sorry, I didn't mean 'virtual' money in the computer sense, like bitcoins. That would be no use in a world without universal computers, as you say. No. I meant 'virtual' as in the case of a money that is not backed by stuff that needs digging up like gold. IOUs are fine - that's what those fancy sheets of paper with a message saying "I promise to pay the bearer..." on them are. Except that, as we have seen, they are not quite fine.

David Fleming, in Lean Logic, has a good deal to say about money. He concludes the several pages thus "Deference crowds in with every sweep of the broom intended to get rid of it. This dominant, expert, sycophantic, infantile vision, seeing only monetary value, and full of certainty that it is true, eats its way through the human ecology."

And of course Mark Boyle has written the Moneyless Man, a jolly good read.

We need a paradigm shift in our thinking to equip ourselves for the future.
Logically, money can only take three forms

1) A particular thing in the real world that has a relatively stable (in the short to medium term) universal exchange value.

2) A promise to pay a particular thing in the real world

3) A state imposed (or equivalent physically powerful body) credit token that is not backed by any particular promise to pay any particular thing in the real world.

In a world as complex as ours is now, (1) is impractical and (3) is too easily corruptible.

Despite all of its difficulties, (2) is the least of all evils in a world of complex economic transactions. However, over the longer term, as our complex societies wind down and become less complex, there may even be some room for a return to (1), at least at a local level.

Whatever else is true, systems of physically un-backed promises to pay always end up in disaster in very short order. There is not one single historical example of the contrary. Not one.
Last edited by Little John on 28 Mar 2013, 18:11, edited 2 times in total.
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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

biffvernon wrote: No. I meant 'virtual' as in the case of a money that is not backed by stuff that needs digging up like gold. IOUs are fine - that's what those fancy sheets of paper with a message saying "I promise to pay the bearer..." on them are. Except that, as we have seen, they are not quite fine.
Exactly. That's what we've got at the moment, and it quite obviously does not work!


We need a paradigm shift in our thinking to equip ourselves for the future.
Obviously. But none of us, yourself included, have got much of a grasp of what this new paradigm is.
"We fail to mandate economic sanity because our brains are addled by....compassion." (Garrett Hardin)
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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

RenewableCandy wrote:Anyone remember that news about the suspicions that the gold at Fort Knox was debased (with Tungsten iirc)?? There's a Tungsten mine near where RenewableGrandmaman used to live :)
Yes. Although I don't buy this particular conspiracy theory. IMO it is more likely it just isn't there at all.
We still have (in theory) Pounds and Guineas(sp?), when I was young the latter were still being used to buy horses (for example).
No, we don't. We just have words for those things. "Pound" referred to a pound of silver, and a "guinea" was a gold coin of the same value as a pound of silver, and the predecessor of the sovereign, which we do still have.

That's why pound coins are gold-coloured, in a reference to the past which is becoming an increasingly sick joke.
"We fail to mandate economic sanity because our brains are addled by....compassion." (Garrett Hardin)
Little John

Post by Little John »

UndercoverElephant wrote:
RenewableCandy wrote:Anyone remember that news about the suspicions that the gold at Fort Knox was debased (with Tungsten iirc)?? There's a Tungsten mine near where RenewableGrandmaman used to live :)
Yes. Although I don't buy this particular conspiracy theory. IMO it is more likely it just isn't there at all.
We still have (in theory) Pounds and Guineas(sp?), when I was young the latter were still being used to buy horses (for example).
No, we don't. We just have words for those things. "Pound" referred to a pound of silver, and a "guinea" was a gold coin of the same value as a pound of silver, and the predecessor of the sovereign, which we do still have.

That's why pound coins are gold-coloured, in a reference to the past which is becoming an increasingly sick joke.
It also demonstrates how deep is our cultural memory such that our authorities must acquiesce to that memory by colour coding our coins as gold, silver and copper.

They know that we all know, at some deep unconscious level, that real money is stuff
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Post by biffvernon »

UndercoverElephant wrote: But none of us, yourself included, have got much of a grasp of what this new paradigm is.
That's true, but I am willing to explore the unthinkable.

Which is what David Fleming did. And Mark Boyle is doing.
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Post by frank_begbie »

stumuzz wrote:Have a look in the films, books section where I posted a short film 'the wizard of oz' a couple of years ago.

It will answer all your questions.
Just watched the video. Best thing I've seen on the subject.

WTF are we frightened of; let the banks fail.

Surely this has to happen; they can't assassinate everyone?
"In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."
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Post by Little John »

frank_begbie wrote:
stumuzz wrote:Have a look in the films, books section where I posted a short film 'the wizard of oz' a couple of years ago.

It will answer all your questions.
Just watched the video. Best thing I've seen on the subject.

WTF are we frightened of; let the banks fail.

Surely this has to happen; they can't assassinate everyone?
Because our economic elite and political elite are cut from the same cloth.

".......No question now, what had happened to the faces of the pigs. The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."

George Orwell - "Animal Farm"
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Post by stumuzz »

"That foot long red Spanish sausage, tastes like soap and gives you diarrhoea "

George Orwell- "Homage to Catalonia"
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Post by stumuzz »

frank_begbie wrote:
Just watched the video. Best thing I've seen on the subject.

WTF are we frightened of; let the banks fail.

Surely this has to happen; they can't assassinate everyone?
Because Frank, it would stop people accumulating excess wealth.

There could be no power, influence, corruption.
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