Launch of The immigrant War

[Little John]

Example: A few months ago I explained just how much fish we Europeans had taken from Somalia's waters, reducing the Somalis to piracy.

an estimated $300 million of tuna, shrimp, and lobster being taken each year, depleting stocks previously available to local fishermen

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy_in_Somalia

Blood diamonds: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_diamond

Conflict timber: http://www.unep.org/dewa/Africa/publica ... nt/205.htm

I was having dinner last Sunday with a friend who is a serious birder - he goes round the world watching them. He said there's not much point going to Madagascar anymore - it's all trashed. Titanium dioxide is in so much of our stuff. http://world.time.com/2013/02/08/the-wh ... adagascar/

Coltan War: http://www.cellular-news.com/coltan/
http://www.webpronews.com/iphones-true- ... es-2012-03

Those are just the first few I thought of. Basically we, the rich part of the world, are continuing to trash Africa, stealing the valuable stuff and leaving war and destitution behind. And some of us have the temerity to claim it's their own fault. Look in the mirror.

Bollocks

Some rich Western companies are taking the Somali fish leading, no doubt, to some Somalis turning to piracy in desperation as a second income stream. Some of the them will be along for the ride as well, no doubt.

Me?

I just go to the supermarket looking for fish in a can. I, like many of the people I know, can't afford to worry about where the buggers come from (though I still do and so, on reflection, don't buy them cos I'm weird like that. I make sure not to ram my worries down my cash-strapped mates' throats though and I definitely don't use words like "we").

It's nice for you, I'm sure, that you can afford to worry. But, then, that's the thing about abstract moral responsibility for the actions of others at a distance. Like everything else in life, it's nice if you can afford it.

[jonny2mad]

blood diamonds so theres a war going on in africa, and the africans use diamonds to fund the war and america and canada have banned the importation of undocumented diamonds .

and somehow you think thats us stealing off africans. no its some africans selling diamonds

and conflict timber thats maybe been sold somewhere downthe line again by some AFRICAN military group

and somehow you feel thats us stealing off africans, no again thats some africans selling trees

and coltran again its some african army selling the stuff I really don't see how thats us stealing anything, blame the africans, we arent for the most part fighting these wars again its the africans blame them .

I think you have a case with somalia because those are non african boats, but I dont think $300 million a year large enough to say we are trashing africa, be interesting to know how many million dollar a year somalia gets in aid .

[biffvernon]

It's nice for you, I'm sure, that you can afford to worry. But, then, that's the thing about abstract moral responsibility for the actions of others at a distance. Like everything else in life, it's nice if you can afford it.

I've no idea about your ability to afford anything, but if you're in full-time work on at least the minimum wage then your income is probably bigger than my pension. I don't eat tuna, shrimp or lobster very often (It's been at least 20 years since I've eaten lobster, though most available in our fishmongers is local not Somalian) and I avoid the sort of meat that is likely to have been partly fed on concentrates made with fish meal. Not stealing from Africa is not about our personal wealth.

[Little John]

It's nice for you, I'm sure, that you can afford to worry. But, then, that's the thing about abstract moral responsibility for the actions of others at a distance. Like everything else in life, it's nice if you can afford it.

I've no idea about your ability to afford anything, but if you're in full-time work on at least the minimum wage then your income is probably bigger than my pension. I don't eat tuna, shrimp or lobster very often (It's been at least 20 years since I've eaten lobster, though most available in our fishmongers is local not Somalian) and I avoid the sort of meat that is likely to have been partly fed on concentrates made with fish meal. Not stealing from Africa is not about our personal wealth.

I'm a self employed gardener in a rented house scraping a living with no pension because I cant afford to put one by.

I'm not alone. There's millions like me. You have no idea B. Either that or you are wilfully blind in your smug moralising. So, it's years since you have chosen to eat lobster is it? I don't know anyone who could even afford to think of eating lobster unless it was buried as a partial ingredient in some processed shite so that the person buying it could pretend to themselves they could afford to eat something a bit special once in a while instead of the processed shite that it really is.

And yet you would deign to take the moral high ground with such people because the first concern on their mind is not the connection between the tin of tuna they have just bought to feed their family with tonight and the broader macro-economic explanation for the existence of Somali pirates?

I'm not kidding B. You've not got a bloody clue.

[biffvernon]

Actually, the last time I dined out on lobster was when I was an undergraduate student. Back in those good old days, the university gave us a living allowance of £2.50 per night when on field trips to pay for accommodation. On this trip, to Anglesey, studying the geochemistry of spoil heaps of Parys Mountain, we chose to camp, rather than staying in a hotel. The money we saved, four day's worth of £2.50s on a meal at the Lobster Pot.

It's nice to see that the restaurant is still going http://www.thelobsterpotrestaurant.co.u ... urses.html
and interesting to see that whole boiled lobster is on at £21.95 Now consider that you could get a shared room in a cheap hotel, full board, for £2.50 and a meal at the Lobster Pot for a tenner in 1973, in the intervening time, hotel costs have gone up more than 20 fold whereas a lobster meal has about doubled.

Lobster seems pretty cheap these days.

[jonny2mad]

if there’s a civil war going on and therefore it’s in dispute who owns diamonds and trees why shouldn’t people be able to buy them, how else are the brave rebels to get funding .

Let’s say you bought diamonds off either the new model army or off the kings army during the English civil war would that have been theft.

Would say the Dutch if they had bought theses hypothetical diamonds have been stealing the valuable stuff and leaving war and destitution behind.
Would they have been to blame for the English civil war?

[biffvernon]

I think for both Steve and myself, buying diamonds is a theoretical abstraction.

[jonny2mad]

I think the fact you dont seem to answer my questions suggests that people saying things like its our fault africas poor, or we cause all the wars in africa "leaving wars and destitution behind " as you say is just some white guilt mantra, and has nothing to do with reality .

[clv101]

Not stealing from Africa is not about our personal wealth.

It's nice to see that the restaurant is still going http://www.thelobsterpotrestaurant.co.u ... urses.html
and interesting to see that whole boiled lobster is on at £21.95 Now consider that you could get a shared room in a cheap hotel, full board, for £2.50 and a meal at the Lobster Pot for a tenner in 1973, in the intervening time, hotel costs have gone up more than 20 fold whereas a lobster meal has about doubled.

Lobster seems pretty cheap these days.

Spot on - food's never been as cheap as it is now - and this is the root of many problems. We've (I'm talking about society) have wrongly prioritised other stuff above food, reducing the sticker price of food but increasing the externalities. These externalities are the obvious environmental, economic and health - but also less obvious cultural costs. Food - its growing, harvesting, preparing, sharing, eating - has been the cornerstone of our cultures since the dawn of our species. Low sticker price processed food may look cheap, but it's not, the cost is immense.

Of course I'm aware there are many folks who, for want of a better expression, are locked into a system which seriously limits their choices. I'm not talking about the individual - this is a problem of society at large and not one easily addressed by the personal choices of the poor. Personal choices of the wealthy however (and in this case 'wealthy' certainly includes anyone in this country on full time minimum wage) can have a positive impact through their personal choices.

An indication of just how ridiculously cheap food has become. For the last few months we've been keeping a record, of every penny spent. Our average spend on all food and drink (excluding the 10 days over Christmas when we were visiting with relatives) is below £3 per day per person. This is all our food and drink - includes feeding others when they come to visit, but, reciprocally doesn't include that consumed when visiting others. We certainly aren't eating junk - the majority is organic and/or fair trade. We don't buy any pre-processed food.

[Blue Peter]

What we need to look at is why the UK is such a desirable place and why other places are so undesirable. We've been robbing the rest of the world for centuries - hardly surprising that we now need to give something back.

What's this "we".

Come on Steve. We had an Empire upon which the sun never set. We weren't there for the good of the peoples living there, we were there for what we could get out of it. And thanks to our hanging onto the coat-tails of the new Emperor (the US), and having a very big banking system, we continue to take more than our share from the world.

This doesn't mean that everything we did/do is evil. This wasn't a smash and grab affair, but a long-term transfer of stuff to us, which requires that we set up an infrastructure. And sure, some of "the natives" will benefit from this infrastructure. But, to use a metaphor, it still means that we went into someone else's house and arranged things so that we get first dibs on all that's theirs,


Peter.

[jonny2mad]

What we need to look at is why the UK is such a desirable place and why other places are so undesirable. We've been robbing the rest of the world for centuries - hardly surprising that we now need to give something back.

What's this "we".

Come on Steve. We had an Empire upon which the sun never set. We weren't there for the good of the peoples living there, we were there for what we could get out of it. And thanks to our hanging onto the coat-tails of the new Emperor (the US), and having a very big banking system, we continue to take more than our share from the world.

This doesn't mean that everything we did/do is evil. This wasn't a smash and grab affair, but a long-term transfer of stuff to us, which requires that we set up an infrastructure. And sure, some of "the natives" will benefit from this infrastructure. But, to use a metaphor, it still means that we went into someone else's house and arranged things so that we get first dibs on all that's theirs,


Peter.

Take up the White Man’s burden—

Send forth the best ye breed—

Go send your sons to exile

To serve your captives' need

To wait in heavy harness

On fluttered folk and wild—

Your new-caught, sullen peoples,

Half devil and half child

Take up the White Man’s burden

In patience to abide

To veil the threat of terror

And check the show of pride;

By open speech and simple

An hundred times made plain

To seek another’s profit

And work another’s gain

Take up the White Man’s burden—

And reap his old reward:

The blame of those ye better

The hate of those ye guard—

The cry of hosts ye humour

(Ah slowly) to the light:

"Why brought ye us from bondage,

“Our loved Egyptian night?”

Take up the White Man’s burden-

Have done with childish days-

The lightly proffered laurel,

The easy, ungrudged praise.

Comes now, to search your manhood

Through all the thankless years,

Cold-edged with dear-bought wisdom,

The judgment of your peers! rudyard kipling

If you look at the motives of the empire you will find the same nonsense that we have a duty to raise up africans etc , you find the same thing today in adverts getting white people to go to africa on aid projects or donate so much a month to child x in god knows where, the term white mans burden has changed but the guilt trip goes on stronger than ever .

How are we getting first dibs when the chinese are becoming the major players in africa , I really think your delusional

[Blue Peter]

"The white man's burden" is just a euphemism for stealing - look how hard we've had to work for this, it's only just.

The fact that there's a new mob in town trying to muscle in on our patch doesn't change the basic thesis; indeed, it confirms it.


Peter.

[emordnilap]

What we need to look at is why the UK is such a desirable place and why other places are so undesirable. We've been robbing the rest of the world for centuries - hardly surprising that we now need to give something back.

What's this "we".

Come on Steve. We had an Empire upon which the sun never set. We weren't there for the good of the peoples living there, we were there for what we could get out of it. And thanks to our hanging onto the coat-tails of the new Emperor (the US), and having a very big banking system, we continue to take more than our share from the world.

This doesn't mean that everything we did/do is evil. This wasn't a smash and grab affair, but a long-term transfer of stuff to us, which requires that we set up an infrastructure. And sure, some of "the natives" will benefit from this infrastructure. But, to use a metaphor, it still means that we went into someone else's house and arranged things so that we get first dibs on all that's theirs,


Peter.

Each of the 'we's can be taken slightly differently.

[jonny2mad]

No its not a euphemism for stealing, its thinking you have a some sort of moral duty to people in a paternalistic way, that the strong have a duty to help the weak, or the clever help the stupid even to the disadvantage of the strong and clever.

Its quite a crazy unnatural notion

We still seem to have this idea when it comes to Africa

We don’t have a patch in Africa, Africa has independence even places that we settled first and built up like south Africa have been given to black Africans, even though they have no right to them apart from our own weakness and stupidity in letting them have them

[Blue Peter]

Each of the 'we's can be taken slightly differently.

Of course. It's a bulletin board post, not a scholarly article But, I think that the basic truth is there. The UK sent people around the world to conquer other countries and bring the wealth back home to Blighty. The UK did things (and still does things - see Iraq, Libya, Syria, Afghanistan) to people that it would not do to its own citizens (yet),


Peter.