Insulation: what are the barriers?

[ujoni08]

Haha, JohnB... you've just given me a brilliant idea.
Jon

[JohnB]

Haha, JohnB... you've just given me a brilliant idea.
Jon

Oh dear. Are you going to tell us what it is?

[ujoni08]

Shove SWMBO in there when she gets too naggy!

[MrG]

I might of mentioned before I look after a database for one of the CERT schemes.

Just ran a query on [cancellation reason] and the highest count is 'Property Not Suitable'

The sort of access issues John talks about are fairly typical. Cavity width can be a problem.. all sorts of things actually. Sometimes people are just stupid and will (say for example) ask for Loft insulation when they don't have a loft.. I know you can do flat roof insulation but not on a CERT grant.. at least not with us.

The loft storage problem is also very common and the instalers we use won't board lofts. I'd actually thought about doing a side buisiness with my step brother boarding peoples lofts over the top of the insulation. There is definitely demand out there for that. When I worked in the office regularly I used to speak to loads of people moaning about wanting to store kipple in their loft. Keela's situation is VERY common.

Maybe one for the small independent insulation specialist to think about.. Ken?

[RenewableCandy]

Yes I was going to put "Wrong kind of house" but that was a far more eloquent way of putting it.

The worst thing of all is that CERT people won't do an improvement job unless it's absolutely up to the standard. E.g. 4" of fluff plus boards, which is useful and better than nothing, can't be done. So people find that out and then decide against doing anything.

A family I know (who are nuts about the environment, so no lack of motivation) have a bedroom in the loft, with no roof (rafters) insulation at all and it's bloody freezing. No company will (is allowed to) do the work unless the depth of material is greater than the "height" of the rafters, but none, also, will add wood to said rafters to bring them up to the minimum required height. Result: frustration all round.

[Andy Hunt]

A family I know (who are nuts about the environment, so no lack of motivation) have a bedroom in the loft, with no roof (rafters) insulation at all and it's bloody freezing. No company will (is allowed to) do the work unless the depth of material is greater than the "height" of the rafters, but none, also, will add wood to said rafters to bring them up to the minimum required height. Result: frustration all round.

Kingspan have a new product which you can cut into lengths which then concertina up so you can slip them in between rafters and when you let go they will hold themselves in place.

Then you can just glue some of the standard thermal board over the top, wallpaper etc.

[MrG]

The worst thing of all is that CERT people won't do an improvement job unless it's absolutely up to the standard

The problem there is the way CERT is set up. Its a market in energy savings. The utility companies are essentially buying savings off contractors who are doing jobs (well actually off middle men a lot of the time) The energy companies all have quota's of the amount of energy savings they must achieve (buy)

They won't buy 'measures' which only give them a small energy saving towards their quota - it isn't worth their while. That's why, for example, you won't get a loft top up for free (at least not from us I think British Gas used to do it though)

Also they basically won't touch anything in any way non standard. Too much hassle / time involved in faffing around with the job and in working out what savings they can claim. And hassle and time cost money. These guys will do a standard loft job in an hour. They aren't in this for the good of the customer just for making their carbon obligation (as cheaply as possible).

Yes they'll try and make a cheap marketing trick out of how 'green' they are but only because they are obligated to make carbon savings in the first place.

*EDIT* should of said.. of course my count only tells you the most common reason why people have asked about insulation and then not had the job done. People who never ask for it in the first place.. who knows! Altough I can say that the the notion that cavity wall insulation will cause damp problems is pretty widespread.. not sure if they are all telegraph readers!

My understanding is that it can make an existing damp problem worse.. ken that's one for you again I think?

[RenewableCandy]

... the notion that cavity wall insulation will cause damp problems is pretty widespread.. not sure if they are all telegraph readers!

My understanding is that it can make an existing damp problem worse.. ken that's one for you again I think?

You are right. However, it can be argued that living in the UK constitutes "an existing damp problem".

[MrG]

Ha! Yeah I guess you culd say that

[featherstick]

Round where I live, plenty of people can't even be bothered to pull the curtains at night, so I guess "Apathy" is a strong reason.

[kenneal - lagger]

A few comments on this post so far:-

ujoni08 - That depth of insulation is overkill by about 300% in our climate. About 450mm is the ultimate effective thickness and will give a U value of about 0.08. Your thickness will give a U value of about 0.03.

Your extra 800mm of insulation is saving 0.05W per degree C per sq metre of loft space. If your house is 50sq metres floor area with an indoor temperature of 20 deg C and an outdoor temperature of -20 deg C you will save 0.05 x 40 x 50 = 100W (a light bulbs worth) over a similar house with 450mm of insulation for a cost of about £700.

MrG - You're right there. If you have a damp problem caused by dirty wall ties, cavity wall insulation (CWI) can exacerbate the problem. So, if you get the problem fixed, which is sensible, you can then put in CWI without any problems.

Very few houses should get a problem with CWI as it is usually only problematic in high wind exposure areas where water is driven across the cavity by high wind pressure. Certain types of pointing can also be a problem when rain can get trapped on ledges on the brickwork, collect and get blown through the mortar or even the brick if a really porous brick has been used.

The only real answer, long term (2050) is to put in CWI and then add another 120-150 of insulation on the outside as well. That will give the 80% Kyoto requirement and remove any damp problems, except rising damp.

I only design insulation schemes, MrG, and install the stuff in my own house. Any jobbing builder with a bit of common sense can install loft insulation. It doesn't require any specialist knowledge. Blowing it in requires the right machine and a friend of mine has one for sale if anyone wants one; any reasonable offer accepted, apparently.

[Andy Hunt]

Round where I live, plenty of people can't even be bothered to pull the curtains at night, so I guess "Apathy" is a strong reason.

Do people on your street have binoculars instead of a telly?

[JohnB]

Do people on your street have binoculars instead of a telly?

Isn't the idea to show off your telly?

[Andy Hunt]

Do people on your street have binoculars instead of a telly?

Isn't the idea to show off your telly?

I've never heard it called that before.

[JohnB]

Do people on your street have binoculars instead of a telly?

Isn't the idea to show off your telly?

I've never heard it called that before.

I've walked past houses where the curtains are open, and my eyes have been drawn towards the huge object occupying half the living room. I suppose to the average consumer, it encourages them to rush off to Curry's if they have a smaller one, but I just think the owners are mad!