How desperate are the USA?

[emordnilap]

When you think about it, things seem to happen very conveniently

9/11, so we can invade Iraq.

The Credit Crunch, so we have a depression and so lower our oil use.

Not that I'm being cynical

As always at this juncture, I recommend Naomi Klein's The Shock Doctrine.

[frank_begbie]

When you think about it, things seem to happen very conveniently

9/11, so we can invade Iraq.

The Credit Crunch, so we have a depression and so lower our oil use.

Not that I'm being cynical

As always at this juncture, I recommend Naomi Klein's The Shock Doctrine.

Thanks for that info. Some videos here if you can't get hold of the book.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka3Pb_StJn4

[emordnilap]

The book is something else. You'll read and re-read the chapters on Iraq in disbelief.

[contadino]

Oh, and the Iraqi government is already saying that they won't be requesting any more military help from the US when the current contract expires in 2011, so those bases in the desert are going to get closed down.

Is the Iraqi government anything but a US puppet government? I don't think so.

It has been to date, but Iran has brokered a new government, following the American withdrawal of combat troops last month.

ETA: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/oc ... ehran-deal

[Andy Hunt]

When you think about it, things seem to happen very conveniently

9/11, so we can invade Iraq.

The Credit Crunch, so we have a depression and so lower our oil use.

Not that I'm being cynical

If the recession was engineered to lower oil use, it hasn't worked - the actual reduction in demand is a tiny blip in the grand scheme of things.

[frank_begbie]

When you think about it, things seem to happen very conveniently

9/11, so we can invade Iraq.

The Credit Crunch, so we have a depression and so lower our oil use.

Not that I'm being cynical

If the recession was engineered to lower oil use, it hasn't worked - the actual reduction in demand is a tiny blip in the grand scheme of things.

Agreed, but it could be just enough so people don't realise we have a shortage.

[Ludwig]

When you think about it, things seem to happen very conveniently

9/11, so we can invade Iraq.

The Credit Crunch, so we have a depression and so lower our oil use.

Not that I'm being cynical

If the recession was engineered to lower oil use, it hasn't worked - the actual reduction in demand is a tiny blip in the grand scheme of things.

Agreed, but it could be just enough so people don't realise we have a shortage.

The recession was always going to be an inevitable consequence of the approach of Peak Oil. It didn't need engineering. The banks stopped lending not just because they were up to their eyeballs in bad loans, but also, perhaps more importantly, because they knew that in a post-peak world all loans henceforth would be bad ones.

That said, I think the severity of the recession was kind of engineered - in the sense that TPTB knew we were heading for economic meltdown, so figured there was nothing to lose by giving the economy a final blast of credit-fuelled mega-growth. But I doubt whether they did this with a view to reducing oil demand in the medium term - after all, the growth we've had over the past 15 years has increased the rate of oil extraction. I think the credit crunch was engineered solely with a view to (a) keeping society stable for as long as possible and (b) lining the pockets of the US Government's friends in banking and corporate consultancy.

[Lord Beria3]

Ludwig, I have a great respect for you, but I struggle to see this conspiracy myself. Do you have any evidence? Insiders who have whistleblowed that the whole thing was engineered by the central bankers?

Who was involved? Was Lehman in the conspiracy? How much was it the logical process of greed by the bankers driven by the desire for ever great bonuses?

[Ludwig]

Ludwig, I have a great respect for you, but I struggle to see this conspiracy myself. Do you have any evidence? Insiders who have whistleblowed that the whole thing was engineered by the central bankers?

Who was involved? Was Lehman in the conspiracy? How much was it the logical process of greed by the bankers driven by the desire for ever great bonuses?

Are you sure you're not mistaking my comments for Begbie's? I was arguing against Begbie's surmise that the recession was engineered with a view to reducing oil demand.

As I've said, the recession was inevitable, because you can't have economic growth without increasing oil use. In the light of this, it makes sense to milk the moribund financial system for all it's worth, while it's still worth something.

As for Lehman - well, I don't know... Clearly the banking sector is not a monolithic entity, and the greed for short-term profits plays a big role in the behaviour of individual companies. I do suspect that the reckless government debt, to finance the US's military operations, is largely driven by awareness of PO. Everything is so intertwined that it's impossible to pick everything apart and say, "X happened because of Y".

[Lord Beria3]

Oh, sorry, we agree than! I do agree that Iraq and to a certain degree the economic crisis is driven by the awareness of PO among the highest circles in the ruling elite.

[Ludwig]

The book is something else. You'll read and re-read the chapters on Iraq in disbelief.

Absolutely. What's shocking is that this is all going on under our noses, and the mainstream media aren't even touching it.

The title and blurb of "The Shock Doctrine" don't do justice to its scope. The blurb makes it sound as though it's just about corporations cashing in on Katrina and the tsunami - it's actually about the whole of US foreign and economic policy since World War 2. Sure, so it's not exactly unbiased, but you sense that Klein's outrage is born of her research, not out of a predefined political stance. If anyone isn't outraged by the facts, they're either totally cynical, totally naive, or totally in denial.

[PS_RalphW]

I'm not sure that the recent financial events were actively managed to cause the resultant outcome. I suspect that the outcome was an emergent and inevitable property of a financial system that had become more and more corrupted to the end of making already rich people even richer. Anything, however damaging to the smooth running of society was encouraged, as long as the arcane rules of finance allowed a profit to be squeezed out of it.

In other words, the entire financial system is riddled with corruption and has lost touch with physical reality. Huge amounts of virtual money are sloshing around the system looking for a way of making even more virtual money, regardless of the impact on the real world. Huge building bubbles consuming vast quantities of energy and finite resources, building inefficient mcmansions (or Chinese cities) in places people don't want to live? No problem. Oil at $147 /barrel? No problem.
Buy almost all the copper on the open market? no problem. Turn corn into low quality petrol? no problem.

The sooner the financial system collapses the sooner this insanity will stop.

[frank_begbie]

When you think about it, things seem to happen very conveniently

9/11, so we can invade Iraq.

The Credit Crunch, so we have a depression and so lower our oil use.

Not that I'm being cynical

As always at this juncture, I recommend Naomi Klein's The Shock Doctrine.

Just put a hold on a copy in my local library, picking it up tomorrow.
Downloaded the video earlier.
Not sure whether to read the book or watch the video first.