If the UK is not ideal where should I emmigrate to?

[eatyourveg]

In typical Middle England style, you've all assumed that PO & CC will affect different countries in the same way and to the same extent. Some (most?) countries/regions are far better prepared than the UK. Cuba, for instance, will hardly notice PO and due to the landscape, a rise in sea levels will not have a huge impact. No flying poos and no fans. Bangladesh could deal with PO pretty easily, but will CC is having a major effect.

Maybe you'd be better off asking "Where will the effects of PO & CC be felt the least?"

Again, the point about xenophobia is purely based on the Daily Mail mentality. Many other places around the globe do not have such inherent bad attitudes.

I know this is meant to be a UK-centric site, but sometimes it sounds like none of you have ever been abroad.

I disagree about the Dail Mail thing. I have travelled fairly extensively, and I am of the opinion that people are pretty much the same the world over. Usually friendly, willing to help and proud of where they live.

But if things get tight, the priorities will larger be defined by blood being thicker than water. As said so many times here, if you are not really good at something very useful, you will be very much at a disadvantage.

Living in Puglia isn't representative of everywhere else either. I know Puglia reasonably well, and very nearly upped sticks to a Masseria a few years ago. I would say it is one if the friendliest places I have been, very open, helpful locals - but that wouldn't stop xenophobia if things got tight enough.
Like it or not, we are tribal. No thin veneer of civilization is going to change that.

You've missed my point. If TSHTF due to PO in the UK, it may not in other countries. I know that around here, whilst it would be felt, it wouldn't cause life to become too unpleasant. If you know Puglia, then you'll know that the majority of it is forecast to be desert in 30 years, and you'll know that we (as a regione) are now suffering water shortages on an annual basis.

I could name about a dozen other places around the globe that I know of that are in far better shape than the UK. Geographically able to withstand many of the effects of CC and not reliant on FFs/energy to the extent that much of the UK is.

Not everywhere will suffer to the degree that England will. If regions don't suffer, the alleged xenophobia that you're so worried about won't emerge. It's arrogant to sit in the UK, predicting the situation elsewhere without an in-depth knowledge of how well those other areas are prepared.

I make it a point - to miss the point. At least according to her indoors.

And yes, I agree that some places are going to be better off than Puglia, or the UK, but as no one can possibly predict all the effects however genned up one might be, it's more a less a lottery.

[contadino]

If regions don't suffer, the alleged xenophobia that you're so worried about won't emerge.

I'd say the opposite. The xenophobia could be most acute in the places that don't suffer much as they will be the places facing the largest influx from other countries/regions.

If regions have a massive influx of people that cannot be supported, then by definition, that region will be suffering.

Are you saying that England will have a massive influx of migrants because it is better prepared? If so, what do you base that on?

[clv101]

If regions don't suffer, the alleged xenophobia that you're so worried about won't emerge.

I'd say the opposite. The xenophobia could be most acute in the places that don't suffer much as they will be the places facing the largest influx from other countries/regions.

If regions have a massive influx of people that cannot be supported, then by definition, that region will be suffering.

Are you saying that England will have a massive influx of migrants because it is better prepared? If so, what do you base that on?

Better prepared? I don't think the UK is better prepared at all. In fact I'd put the UK at the low end of the G20 spectrum. From an planning economy/peak oil point of view I'd expect the UK to see net emigration over the next 10 years due to weak currency, high unemployment and a rise in xenophobia. However, from a climate change point of view the UK seems likely to experience relatively little impact so I'd expect immigration. Economic emigration, climate immigration.

If a region is less affected by peak oil and climate change than others it will become a relatively more attractive place to be. All else being equal this will result in immigration from the worse affected areas. The larger the relative difference the larger the immigration which will put pressure on the very aspects of the region which enabled it to cope with peak oil and climate better than other places. It's only natural to expect the indigenous population to resist this pressure.

[Erik]

CC, PO, recession, xenophobia ... pfffff... there are just too many unknowns.

So move abroad? Now?

Naaah, I'd say stick around wherever you are, hang out with people you get on well with, prepare as best as you can, and don't forget to enjoy yourself (without it being at the expense of others). If this can't be achieved where you are, then get up and go, but don't expect things to be any easier wherever it is that you are going to.

[kenneal - lagger]

Talking about enjoying yourselves and preparing, take a look at

http://www.powerswitch.org.uk/forum/vie ... hp?t=11404

where you can do both, again.

Regarding CC and the UK, the UK and parts of Western Europe could become a cold desert like southern Chile if the Gulf Stream slows significantly or stops. The cold sea currents running up the coast of Chile prevent the formation of rain clouds, hence the desert conditions in a large part of the country. That would obviously have a huge impact on the number of people that could be supported here.

The main problem with CC is that no one really knows what the effects will be and where.

[Adam1]

I am inclined to say "Europe", although, it's a fairly big and very varied place, so it's hard to vote in your poll. I can't give any objective reasons why. It just feels like home. When we were living in London, we considered moving to south-west Ireland, eastern Germany, southern France and other parts of the UK but as things turned out we ended up here in Devon. In the end the decision was not primarily driven by peak oil (or climate change). It is clear that where we are now isn't going to escape the problems PO/CC create, although it may fare better than other parts. Who knows? There is no escape though. If Britain ends up with a neo-nazi or fascist controlled regime, I and I imagine many of us on this forum would want or need to relocate pretty sharpish.

I think other factors are ultimately more important: community, ability to earn a living, affordability, family links, personal preferences (city loving or country loving).

[contadino]

CC, PO, recession, xenophobia ... pfffff... there are just too many unknowns.

So move abroad? Now?

Naaah, I'd say stick around wherever you are, hang out with people you get on well with, prepare as best as you can, and don't forget to enjoy yourself (without it being at the expense of others). If this can't be achieved where you are, then get up and go, but don't expect things to be any easier wherever it is that you are going to.

I'd say expand your horizons now, in a way that you won't be able to do in 10 years. If you happen upon somewhere where you feel grounded, and you can figure out a way to carve a little niche for yourself, settle there.

[extractorfan]

I'd say expand your horizons now, in a way that you won't be able to do in 10 years. If you happen upon somewhere where you feel grounded, and you can figure out a way to carve a little niche for yourself, settle there.

I agree with this. 100%. There are too many variables so find a place that you can feel happy. If it is yourself that makes you unhappy remember that you always take yourself with you.

[fifthcolumn]

I'm not sure Canada is immune though.
We have all been thinking based on the peak oil party line of "demand will exceed supply" meaning oil prices are high.

But what has actually happened is oil prices have cratered due to recession.

The recession itself has clobbered ontario and quebec (big manufacturing regions) and many of them are trying to come to alberta and saskatchewan.

Problem is, with the drop in the oil price there are big layoffs here.

Unemployment has jumped 30% since january.

If oil prices go back up and stay up, then the west should do well (as will montana and north dakota due to the bakken and to a lesser extent texas due to the shale gas) but if they go back up then crater again, employment could be as shaky here as it is anywhere else.

I was unemployed effective october and jumped over here in november. May turn out to be a very breif respite from the hard times.

[Erik]

Talking about enjoying yourselves and preparing, take a look at

http://www.powerswitch.org.uk/forum/vie ... hp?t=11404

where you can do both, again.

Looks good!

[Erik]

I'd say expand your horizons now, in a way that you won't be able to do in 10 years. If you happen upon somewhere where you feel grounded, and you can figure out a way to carve a little niche for yourself, settle there.

I agree, though settling down "elsewhere", especially if its abroad, is also a long laborious process with many ups 'n' downs along the way (as I guess you might know). The unanswerable question is: Is there enough time to go through such a process? I guess it's important to know when to stop trying to expand one's horizons too... afterall, a horizon is like a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

If it is yourself that makes you unhappy remember that you always take yourself with you.

Well said! (er, I think!)

[kenneal - lagger]

If oil prices go back up and stay up, then the west should do well (as will montana and north dakota due to the bakken and to a lesser extent texas due to the shale gas) but if they go back up then crater again, employment could be as shaky here as it is anywhere else.

We're on the roller coaster ride down now. Low prices quashing investment in both renewables and oil then high prices sparking it until the same high prices put us into recession again and again and......

[kenneal - lagger]

Talking about enjoying yourselves and preparing, take a look at

http://www.powerswitch.org.uk/forum/vie ... hp?t=11404

where you can do both, again.

Looks good!

Will you be over here for it, Eric?

[Erik]

Talking about enjoying yourselves and preparing, take a look at

http://www.powerswitch.org.uk/forum/vie ... hp?t=11404

where you can do both, again.

Looks good!

Will you be over here for it, Eric?

Unfortunately I won't be in the UK this summer, but thanks for asking - it would be great to meet you all!

[emordnilap]

Welcome ArowxGames

Interesting thread. I suspect pee-essers would be more amenable to emigrating than your regular Jane Soap, being more aware of the consequences of the idiocy of the over-developed world.

The grass IS greener - but only in a small percentage of cases

I emigrated to the west of Ireland twelve years ago and would not move back to England if you paid me. While there's far more sense of community and involvement here, even amongst what you might call 'ordinary' people, you're more-or-less allowed to get on with your life, however you want to live it.

There's a touch of anarchy in the place; indeed, the dictionary - as opposed to the media - definition suits: a system that regards the absence of all direct or coercive government as a political ideal and that proposes the cooperative and voluntary association of individuals and groups as the principal mode of organised society. The EU doesn't fit comfortably into this picture of course but not everyone thinks industrial farming is a Good Thing. (Further to that, I recall reading that secession of individual counties was mooted by de Valera, primarily in relation to the northern counties but not excluding others.)

Other expatriates have come and gone: they've found the resources here inadequate, the natives unfriendly, the location remote, the culture unsuitable, the climate unacceptable. Good riddance - they're wrong. What it really means is they're unsuitable, unfriendly, remote...

Moving here made me relax for the first time in my life - the first time I'd ever really stopped and taken the time to think properly about what it means to be simply alive and alive simply.

So to finally get to my point, I've long thought that some people - a small percentage of the general population - simply don't belong where they're born. Most people do and I respect that. Is this a correlation between a typical PS contributor (you know who you are) and the notion of not belonging?

For instance (and I can only take my personal experience) the rest of my extended family all live within a few miles of where they were born, all within a few miles of each other; they're all of a parochial mindset, extremely safe and unadventurous and, without meaning to insult them, would favour the Sun over the Guardian, chips rather than curry, tv instead of forestry.

So here I am, the black sheep: way down in the lower left corner of the political/economic spectrum, the odd one out of our entire family, even taking distant relations into account. Whether this is where I should have been born is impossible to say but it suits me to the ground, pun intended.

Sorry about the long post. Sometimes the old personal thought randomiser takes over.