jonny2mad wrote:
I used to steal food off my little nephew every time he ate and now he eats like a fellow who thinks someones going to steal his food he eats fast and covers his plate and is alert , hes 22 and six foot 7, but more than that hes mentally the sort of person who would do well in a gulag fighting for the last cheese sandwich .
Presumably he also hates your guts and would do anything to get his own back if the opportunity arose.
its the sort of thing we do in my family
Hm. Well. Not in mine or in most families I know. I guess it's hard to escape one's upbringing.
Last edited by Ludwig on 21 Feb 2012, 22:13, edited 1 time in total.
"We're just waiting, looking skyward as the days go down / Someone promised there'd be answers if we stayed around."
jonny2mad wrote:Your form of training the young is not the only form, the Spartans had a radically different form of child rearing, not everyone brings up their children with notions of universal love and compassion, not everyone in the world thinks thats such a great idea .
What advantage would a spartan upbring give children what sort of positive quality's would the adults have ?
If they would grow up anything like you then no thanks.
"Unfortunately, the Fed can't print oil"
---Ben Bernake (2011)
Ludwig wrote:
You are a brute, a bigot and a bully, by your own admission a violent and cruel person, and if you look around you might notice that, though you intimidate people, few like or respect you.
+1 +1 +1
"Unfortunately, the Fed can't print oil"
---Ben Bernake (2011)
But why and how could natural selection tame the bonobo? One possible narrative begins about 2.5 million years ago, when the last common ancestor of bonobos and chimpanzees lived both north and south of the Zaire River, as did gorillas, their ecological rivals. A massive drought drove gorillas from the south, and they never returned. That last common ancestor suddenly had the southern jungles to themselves.
As a result, competition for resources wouldn’t be as fierce as before. Aggression, such a costly habit, wouldn’t have been so necessary. And whereas a resource-limited environment likely made female alliances rare, as they are in modern chimpanzees, reduced competition would have allowed females to become friends. No longer would males intimidate them and force them into sex. Once reproduction was no longer traumatic, they could afford to be fertile more often, which in turn reduced competition between males.
“If females don’t let you beat them up, why should a male bonobo try to be dominant over all the other males?” said Hare. “In male chimps, it’s very costly to be on top. Often in primate hierarchies, you don’t stay on top very long. Everyone is gunning for you. You’re getting in a lot of fights. If you don’t have to do that, it’s better for everybody.” Chimpanzees had been caught in what Hare called “this terrible cycle, and bonobos have been able to break this cycle.”
Children need to learn to not try and grab more then their share and not to lie and that a parental NO means NO. They are taught this by their mothers or daytime care giver most effectively with a swat on the diapers at the moment of infraction. Children that fail to learn these lessons by the time they are out of diapers have a hard time of it and their parents pay hell for their failure.
The Spartan method of child rearing among other things led to a steady decline in the Spartan population and doomed their warrior society to defeat by shear lack of numbers. Why they could not see the decline and try another tactic is a mystery.
Hmmm....I thought the process of growing up was an arms race between parents who hope that NO mean NO and children who learn how to subvert parental intention.
Hmmm....I thought the process of growing up was an arms race between parents who hope that NO mean NO and children who learn how to subvert parental intention.
It is these days because that's how the media encourage us to perceive family relationships. Everything is fight. Parents can't be respected, children can't be trusted.
Schools must take a lot of the blame for it. Virtually every parent I know complains that their children start behaving like stroppy teenagers from about the age of 6. It's so very sad to see decent parents forced to bring up monsters.
It shouldn't be difficult for "no" to mean "no", it did when I was a child. Children just seem to get the message, "Adults are idiots whose sole purpose is to stop you getting what you want."
"We're just waiting, looking skyward as the days go down / Someone promised there'd be answers if we stayed around."
Schools must take a lot of the blame for it. Virtually every parent I know complains that their children start behaving like stroppy teenagers from about the age of 6. It's so very sad to see decent parents forced to bring up monsters.
Society has changed and how children and young people behave is reflected in that. In particular there are more commercial pressures on kids than ever and higher levels of mental illness within society (including parents). I don't think it's as simple as 'blame the parents/kids/schools' It's a complex interaction of these and many other factors.
They both advocate loving, confident, boundaried parenting. James in particular makes a very thorough argument for the idea that this is much harder in advanced capitalist societies with an ethos of individualism, acquisition and competition.
I'm sure Johnny will disagree but then I'll take my own experience and the well researched writings of a qualified psychologist over the dog eat dog mentality anyday!
Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. Frederick Douglass
While learning that no means no they also learn that they are told no for their own good. The house we started raising a family (The one I grew up in) had a large old fashioned wood stove in the living room that could get red hot at times. Rather then confine our oldest to a playpen we erected the wooden slated pen around the stove and let her have the rest of the room. She would occasionally reach through the slats towards the surface of the stove and be told NO HOT and get the backs of her hands cuffed. On one occasion we were both out in the kitchen for a moment (That's all it takes) and a scream was followed by princess lotsocurls running out to the kitchen while blowing on the ends of her fingers. "Touched the stove didn't you?" UH UH UH Blow blow Blow UH UH UH. Blow blow blow.
She does genetic research with stem cells now.
Hmmm....I thought the process of growing up was an arms race between parents who hope that NO mean NO and children who learn how to subvert parental intention.
It is these days because that's how the media encourage us to perceive family relationships. Everything is fight. Parents can't be respected, children can't be trusted.
I'm not so sure about that. My ideas, (see above) was from my experience half a century ago. If anything, I would think that modern parent, a generation and two on, is better friends with their children.
Ludwig wrote:Apologies to readers of this thread, I realise it is verging on the personal, I'll try to curb it.
No apologies necessary.
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
jonny2mad wrote:
I used to steal food off my little nephew every time he ate and now he eats like a fellow who thinks someones going to steal his food he eats fast and covers his plate and is alert , hes 22 and six foot 7, but more than that hes mentally the sort of person who would do well in a gulag fighting for the last cheese sandwich .
Presumably he also hates your guts and would do anything to get his own back if the opportunity arose.
its the sort of thing we do in my family
Hm. Well. Not in mine or in most families I know. I guess it's hard to escape one's upbringing.
Actually my nephews very fond of me he knew why I was doing it , my father used to do similar things with me as a child and brought me and my sister up with the same attitudes I thought the world of him .
If you have learned something in your life you try to pass on those lessons, thats not cruelty, cruelty is where you bring up a child and don't teach him things that will keep him alive
I asked what sort of quality's would a spartan upbringing give you , I would think incredible quality's of endurance, you would likely give far more effort, given equal numbers Spartans generally won even out numbered they generally won .
"What causes more suffering in the world than the stupidity of the compassionate?"Friedrich Nietzsche
jonny2mad wrote:Your form of training the young is not the only form, the Spartans had a radically different form of child rearing, not everyone brings up their children with notions of universal love and compassion, not everyone in the world thinks thats such a great idea .
What advantage would a spartan upbring give children what sort of positive quality's would the adults have ?
hmm So 300 is bad because it celebrates heterosexuality and white people, but white people need to feel more guilt .... about killing red Indians or enslaving black people ....and the films bad because one of the bad guys is a humpback and thats against the disabled ......and the Spartans getting rid of disabled baby's was a bad thing, and is somehow linked to war and white heterosexual people especially white males again .
"What causes more suffering in the world than the stupidity of the compassionate?"Friedrich Nietzsche
its the sort of thing we do in my family
While learning that no means no they also learn that they are told no for their own good. The house we started raising a family (The one I grew up in) had a large old fashioned wood stove in the living room that could get red hot at times. Rather then confine our oldest to a playpen we erected the wooden slated pen around the stove and let her have the rest of the room. She would occasionally reach through the slats towards the surface of the stove and be told NO HOT and get the backs of her hands cuffed. On one occasion we were both out in the kitchen for a moment (That's all it takes) and a scream was followed by princess lotsocurls running out to the kitchen while blowing on the ends of her fingers. "Touched the stove didn't you?" UH UH UH Blow blow Blow UH UH UH. Blow blow blow. 
