Could an "underground" survival group exist?

[Vortex]

Blimey. Surely were talking about re-inventing local trade here.

Seems like it.

However I suspect that open local initiatives such as these might not survive the transition from energy-rich to energy-deficient society very well.

Imagine the ultimate fate of say Totnes with lots of wind power, lots of locally grown food ... but with a large crowd of hungry and/or scared Londoners on the way down to "visit", having seen the attractive details on the Web or in a magazine article. Even without "visitors", Totnes would have enough trouble keeping the local politicians and the civil servants mitts off the goodies.

The local trade type approach is probably OK for the post-crash world ... but some other tougher and more stealthy approach might be needed to survive any intermediate breakdown or extended economic recession.

[Vortex]

Well, I wonder what?s wrong with forming groups with a few like minded people? Then networking with other groups? A few people here and a few people there each working on their own little patch but able to call upon others for support. Also, one group could start to produce things that are used by other groups such as clothes etc. The next group and then the next, that way you can go beyond just surviving.

Good point. However I suggest that, in the early years at least, stashing away a few containers full of clothing from charity shops would be more beneficial than learning to spin wool etc.

A bulk purchase of work clothing, boots & wellies today from China would probably be incredibly cheap .. and these might remain in use for decades. (As a pensioner my Dad wore work boots from his teenage years).

I feel that it is important to survive the first few years of major decline as best you can.

Once you join the ranks of vitamin deficient tramps wearing bits of car tyre as shoes you are out of the game ... even if you DO know how to weave a basket or spin wool!

I remember reading about the unemployed office workers in the 1929 US depression. They would only buy basics such as food ... and business suits! The men knew that they HAD to be presentable in order to get any rare job that turned up.

Energy descent may be similar ... the survivors will need a few "goodies" to prevent themselves from sliding into the morass.

[SunnyJim]

In the UK Transition towns are ever bigger. Bristol has a transition town initiative going on. Bristol is (according to Wikipedia) 400k strong city. Where on earth do you live to have 5+ million!!!!! That is HUGE.

[SunnyJim]

OK. You're in Madrid which has a metropolitan population of 5+ million.

Well, I guess you could still start something. From mighty acorns etc etc....

[reefskin]

Oil scarcity will mean relocalisation and local living.

So I think a lot of the solutions and structures will emerge locally as successful grass roots initiatives of many different types in small communities. Basically a whole devolution of power.

[careful_eugene]

If society fragments in a catabolic manner i.e decomposes into smaller units, fragmenting current established mega structures .... could an "underground" organisation feed off the mayhem to build up anabolicly a small but well structured alternative modern society?

It is not totally out of the question for a few hunded/thousand people to prepare for a decent life post-collapse.

Certain factories could be protected from looting, food & resources stores could be created/protected, transport & communications links & equipment could be protected.

I'm fairly sure that a modern - but small - society could rise from the ashes ... possibly using the carcase of the old society as a resource base.

I'm not talking about people who buy a house in the country and fill it with tinned food ... they have no chance long term.

I am thinking of a more planned long term approach.

Such a scheme would have to be planned well in advance.

So .. do you think that anyone is making such plans?

Could we detect their activities?

I think I know what you mean, a group of like-minded people for whom the survival of the whole group is more important than the survival of the individual.
The plan would require the following:
1, A sufficient number of far-sighted people willing to dedicate their lives to working for a better future they will not see. The closest (fictional) example I can think of is Robert Heinleins Howard families from the book Time enough for love http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Families
2, Clearly defined goals agreed by everyone
3, Total secrecy
4, Wealth enough to get the plan off the ground
The plan also depends on a large dieoff among the rest of the population.

I think it's possible but unlikely that someone is making these plans.
Good luck if you want to make a start, just don't broadcast it in a place that can be accessed by everyone... oops

[Pippa]

Believe it or not I'm the current chairman of our village trade association!!

Guess what! I have done a little general talking about resource depletion etc but seeing as our little village shops are so under pressure from other competing sources I really haven't had the guts/courage to discuss PO or to get folks "into" thinking of implications and solutions at all. Life seems (as we all know why) to be difficult enough without being told that its only going to get much harder.

You may all shout "traitor to the cause" etc but my own experience is that even my own nearest and dearest don't believe me. What chance have I got of convincing others less bothered or believing of me? Anyway, there are alot of other considerations that I have now come to think of as equally important the main one being what if I convince folk that there really is a great crisis looming - do I really want to be responsible for their fall out as well and what real comfort and hope am I going to be able to offer them? Unlike the guy who urged me into reading The Long Emergency I don't relish the idea of certain individuals "getting what's coming to them"!
What should I tell the guy whose trade is selling flat screen tvs and washing machines? What preparations should he make? He can fix stuff sure but what about his daughter who is planning to take over from him? She can't do any of that. what should the lady with the gift shop do, or the general grocer who struggles to compete with out of town supermarkets?

As per usual when it comes to these discussions, the solutions don't come easily.

I would like a local group to discuss PO etc with but for the meantime I content myself with staying friends in my local community; hopefully I'll be better placed if the penny ever does drop....

[SunnyJim]

Blimey. Surely were talking about re-inventing local trade here.

Seems like it.

However I suspect that open local initiatives such as these might not survive the transition from energy-rich to energy-deficient society very well.

Imagine the ultimate fate of say Totnes with lots of wind power, lots of locally grown food ... but with a large crowd of hungry and/or scared Londoners on the way down to "visit", having seen the attractive details on the Web or in a magazine article. Even without "visitors", Totnes would have enough trouble keeping the local politicians and the civil servants mitts off the goodies.

The local trade type approach is probably OK for the post-crash world ... but some other tougher and more stealthy approach might be needed to survive any intermediate breakdown or extended economic recession.

Surely the options are get out of the country or ready the whole country. i.e. get Londoners to live like Cubans. Should be easy enough. Loads of Ch? Guevara T-Shirts in Camden

[Vortex]

I think I know what you mean, a group of like-minded people for whom the survival of the whole group is more important than the survival of the individual.
The plan would require the following:
1, A sufficient number of far-sighted people willing to dedicate their lives to working for a better future they will not see. The closest (fictional) example I can think of is Robert Heinleins Howard families from the book Time enough for love http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Families
2, Clearly defined goals agreed by everyone
3, Total secrecy
4, Wealth enough to get the plan off the ground
The plan also depends on a large dieoff among the rest of the population.

I think it's possible but unlikely that someone is making these plans.

You've got my meaning 100% ... although the group's founders MIGHT also benefit if the nastiness arrived relatively quickly.

[Bandidoz]

What chance have I got of convincing others less bothered or believing of me?

Why not put on a showing of End of Suburbia or a talk from someone like Rob Hopkins? At least then you won't be the messenger....