New coronavirus in/from China

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Little John

Post by Little John »

So, updating and drawing together all of the known data, on the record, to date:

1) The people who have died of Covid19 were, on average the very oldest among us, So old, in fact, that their average age at death (82.4) was higher than the national average for age at death (81.5), leading to the perverse statistic that someone who dies of covid19 has, on average, a longer life expectancy than someone who dies of anything other than Covid19. It is, therefore, an entirely reasonable assumption to make that such people are more likely, all other things being equal, to die this year than anybody else.

2) The above assumption is predictably corroborated the moment you take a look at the total annual death rates for the last 5 years in the UK.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... ndandwales

2015 - 529,655
2016 - 525,048
2017 - 533,253
2018 - 541,589
2019 - 530,841
2020 (thus far) - 453,803

From the above numbers is it plain to see that, whilst there is, indeed, a small but significant rise, thus far, in the death rate for this year, it does not particularly lie far outside the the normal range.

However, even to limited extent it does, given that the vast and overwhelming demographic of those dying of Covid 19 have been the elderly and the very elderly, we may still reasonably assume that even this relatively modest increase will be of people who were in, at most, the last two years of life. Though, this will not be confirmed until and unless we see a commensurate dip in the death rate next year due to the fact you cannot die twice. However, the fact that we are NOT seeing a commensurate rise in deaths and hospitalizations (despite the lies peddled on the MSM) during this second wave of infection is, indeed, corroborating the fact that anyone who was at risk of dying of Covid19 have mostly already done so.

So, in short, our country's economy has been reduced to a smoldering ruin and the liberties won with the blood, sweat and tears of our ancestors have been stripped away in order to prevent the deaths of people, the vast majority of whose lives were drawing to a natural close sometime in the next 12 or so months and a minority of whose lives were due to naturally end sometime in the next 24 or so months.

Covid19 IR over time

Image

Covid19 Hospital admissions over time

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Covid19 CFR over time

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Covid 19 CFR demographics

https://ourworldindata.org/mortality-risk-covid

Image

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/

https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/s ... -activity/

Finally, as for the latest attempt to make everyone shit their pants, this time over "Long Covid":

That too is bullshit - at least to the extent to which it affects people. One might as well say there is such a thing as "long flu". That is to say, there is always going to be a very small portion of people - usually the very elderly and/or already very frail - who will experience symptoms of things like flu for weeks or, even, months after initial recovery. And so it will be, almost certainly, with a respiratory virus like Covid19. So what?

The only thing that matters, from a public policy perspective, is how many people will suffer such symptoms and how severe are they.

If you trawl (as I have) through a large number of media articles hysterically proclaiming "long Covid" is going to get us, what you find is largely uncorroborated propaganda or, when it is corroborated, it is with individual, unverifiable anecdotes, which are meaningless. Or, whenever it points to actual research findings, when you go and dig up the original research and read through it, it is of people who are already very elderly and/or already very frail. The very people, in other words, who would likely suffer lingering symptoms of any number of illnesses.

In short, "long covid" is just one more piece of hysterical, fear mongering propaganda.

First they told us millions would die.

Then when that narrative began to falter in the light of the data, they told us all of our kids would die of "Kawasaki disease". Remember that?

Then, they told us we all had to wear muzzles on the entirely evidence free assertion that Covid19 is asymptomatically transmitted.

Now, when it is clear the second wave of infection is NOT being accompanied by a second wave of hospitalizations and deaths, they are trying to get us all to shit our pants over "long covid"
Last edited by Little John on 20 Oct 2020, 12:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Catweazle
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Post by Catweazle »

Little John wrote:corroborating the fact that anyone who was at risk of dying of Covid19 have mostly already done so.
Tosh. That would imply that although the nationwide infection is only around 10%, all the old folk have already been infected.
Little John wrote:So, in short, our country's economy has been reduced to a smoldering ruin and the liberties won with the blood, sweat and tears of our ancestors have been stripped away in order to prevent the deaths of people, the vast majority of whose lives were drawing to a natural close sometime in the next 12 or so months and a minority of whose lives were due to naturally end sometime in the next 24 or so months.
More tosh. I've already posted a link to the life expectancy calculator for you.
Little John wrote:Then when that narrative began to falter in the light of the data, they told us all of our kids would die of "Kawasaki disease". Remember that?
No, I don't remember that, because it never happened. From the first case it was described as very rare.

https://time.com/5842902/covid-19-kawasaki-disease/
Little John wrote:Then, they told us we all had to wear muzzles on the entirely evidence free assertion that Covid19 is asymptomatically transmitted.
The Lancet begs to differ.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanc ... 9/fulltext
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Post by Catweazle »

vtsnowedin wrote:Perhaps but both France and Germany show a similar rise though a flatter line. A straight tine progression on the UK graph would put you about 400 a day by new years day.I hope you avoid that.
Doctors believe that the improved treatment reduce the death toll.
Doctors believe that improvements in intensive care have reduced the death toll — with nationwide mortality rates in those admitted to an ICU falling from 40 per cent between March and August to 15 per cent since the start of September. Dr Simon Ashworth, an intensive care doctor at St Mary’s hospital in Paddington, said “subjectively it feels like a different disease now� and patients were coming off ventilators faster.

Professor Rupert Pearse, an intensive care doctor at the Royal London hospital, in Whitechapel, said that the “hands, face, space� social-distancing guidance had “slowed the flood wave� and allowed routine healthcare to continue.

He tweeted: “We can now see that ICU admissions with Covid-19 are increasing at a much slower rate than March. So we are seeing a ‘slow burn’ rather than a ‘second wave’. This could make the vital difference to how well the NHS copes through the winter.�
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/ ... 72139.html
Little John

Post by Little John »

Catweazle wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:Perhaps but both France and Germany show a similar rise though a flatter line. A straight tine progression on the UK graph would put you about 400 a day by new years day.I hope you avoid that.
Doctors believe that the improved treatment reduce the death toll.
Doctors believe that improvements in intensive care have reduced the death toll — with nationwide mortality rates in those admitted to an ICU falling from 40 per cent between March and August to 15 per cent since the start of September. Dr Simon Ashworth, an intensive care doctor at St Mary’s hospital in Paddington, said “subjectively it feels like a different disease now� and patients were coming off ventilators faster.

Professor Rupert Pearse, an intensive care doctor at the Royal London hospital, in Whitechapel, said that the “hands, face, space� social-distancing guidance had “slowed the flood wave� and allowed routine healthcare to continue.

He tweeted: “We can now see that ICU admissions with Covid-19 are increasing at a much slower rate than March. So we are seeing a ‘slow burn’ rather than a ‘second wave’. This could make the vital difference to how well the NHS copes through the winter.�
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/ ... 72139.html
You are ignoring the fact that every single country across Europe and most of the rest of the world, for that matter, is showing the same relational pattern of deaths, hospitalizations and infections over time, irrespective of population denisty, poverty levels or adequacy of medical provision

You are doing this deliberately

We both know why.

It's because you know full well you cannot actually contest the data. So, instead, you now are grasping at the only straw available - which is to claim that the data must be as a consequence of all of the measures taken. But, you are only able to do this if you completely ignore the fact of broadly similar epidemiological outcomes pertaining across all countries over time irrespective of any and all other socioeconomic and demographic differences. Differences which, only a short while ago, people like you were equally desperate to claim made ALL the difference with respect to countries like Sweden, for example.

The now untenable position you are trying to cling onto has lost all intellectual and moral credibility and so your continued clinging on to it means that you are also losing all intellectual and moral credibility.
Last edited by Little John on 19 Oct 2020, 19:56, edited 5 times in total.
Little John

Post by Little John »

vtsnowedin wrote:Perhaps but both France and Germany show a similar rise though a flatter line. A straight tine progression on the UK graph would put you about 400 a day by new years day.I hope you avoid that.
Do you know what the typical total death rate is, per day, on new year's day in any given year for the UK?
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Post by kenneal - lagger »

The Welsh Labour Party and the SNP have now joined the conspiracy against LJ and his working class friends and declared a lockdown to enslave everybody.
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Little John

Post by Little John »

kenneal - lagger wrote:The Welsh Labour Party and the SNP have now joined the conspiracy against LJ and his working class friends and declared a lockdown to enslave everybody.
You really are a proper fool.

Catweazle at least makes an attempt to use logic, now matter how flawed I may consider that logic to be.

All you are now reduced to is senile, facile, infantile comments. Do you seriously not understand how pathetic that looks?
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Post by clv101 »

Little John wrote:All you are now reduced to is senile, facile, infantile comments.
That's on you, it's likely because you are impossible to engage with rationally. I fully expect you to start regurgitating climate change denial nonsense next month.
Little John

Post by Little John »

clv101 wrote:
Little John wrote:All you are now reduced to is senile, facile, infantile comments.
That's on you, it's likely because you are impossible to engage with rationally. I fully expect you to start regurgitating climate change denial nonsense next month.
Nice bit of misdirection there. Not nice enough to be anything other than transparent, however. Must try harder.

Or, you could always just address the data that has been presented with full references given from reputable sources?

But, of course, you won't.
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Post by Catweazle »

Little John wrote:
clv101 wrote:
Little John wrote:All you are now reduced to is senile, facile, infantile comments.
That's on you, it's likely because you are impossible to engage with rationally. I fully expect you to start regurgitating climate change denial nonsense next month.
Nice bit of misdirection there. Not nice enough to be anything other than transparent, however. Must try harder.

Or, you could always just address the data that has been presented with full references given from reputable sources?

But, of course, you won't.
I don't think anyone would argue with the data, it's your interpretation of it that makes no sense.
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Post by vtsnowedin »

Little John wrote: It's because you know full well you cannot actually contest the data. So, instead, you now are grasping at the only straw available - which is to claim that the data must be as a consequence of all of the measures taken..
Is there any data where no measures were taken? Even Sweden let people wear masks and social distance so I know of no country where the population did nothing to avoid getting infected.
You are making a hard argument which has more then a little merit but you diminish it by misusing some of the data.
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Post by Initiation »

vtsnowedin wrote: Is there any data where no measures were taken? Even Sweden let people wear masks and social distance so I know of no country where the population did nothing to avoid getting infected.
Literally no one is suggesting 'do nothing' or 'encourage people to go around licking lift buttons' :lol: so I think it is a little unfair to frame the debate like that. The questions should be how far do you go, what do you mandate, what do you ask people to do, do you impose £10,000 fines on people? and how do you balance this against the economic and social impacts. Unfortunately Boris and Hancock's smear of 'letting the virus rip' is an attempt to close down this debate in my view.

Certainly the voluntary/less restrictive measures used earlier in March appeared to have quite a big effect as deaths in the UK peaked early in April - potentially too soon after the lockdown on the 23rd to have worked it's way through.

The example of masks is a good one, here they are mandatory in many places. In Sweden you are not obliged to wear them but people can if they so wish (as far as I can see from various sources Sweden has <10% uptake in mask usage.). I object to them being mandated but would be fine if a shop or pub owner wanted to enforce them - I can head elsewhere and those who want masks can go there.

Certainly it is worth studying and learning from them (like all countries), they obviously have done something differently as the number of positive tests has not risen anywhere near as dramatically as many other european countries.
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Post by Catweazle »

I enjoyed this description of Sweden and their culture.

https://unherd.com/2020/08/why-sweden-i ... -to-covid/
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Post by careful_eugene »

Catweazle wrote:I enjoyed this description of Sweden and their culture.

https://unherd.com/2020/08/why-sweden-i ... -to-covid/
I did too.
To rip up a long-prepared pandemic plan and impose unprecedented measures just because everybody else was would be considered reckless; to close schools would have been considered morally unacceptable.
Their response to Covid seems to have worked as well as it could have under the circumstances.
Paid up member of the Petite bourgeoisie
Little John

Post by Little John »

Surprise surprise

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/major-increa ... a-reveals/
Thousands more dying at home from non-Covid illnesses than usual, ONS reveals

There has been a significant increase in the number of people dying at home compared to previous years, new ONS data has revealed.

A report found that over 26,000 extra deaths in private homes were recorded in England and Wales than the five-year average - many not involving Covid-19.

The analysis shows that between March and September 2020, there were 24,387 more deaths in England and 1,644 in Wales than expected.

The largest increase in deaths compared with five-year average was in people with dementia and Alzheimer’s disease - figures show an increase of 75% private homes this year.

In England, heart diseases was the leading cause of death in private homes for males - accounting for 18.8% of all male deaths in that time.

Heart disease deaths in hospital, however, dropped by over 22%, prompting concern that many patients are still avoiding hospital treatment due to fears of catching Covid-19.

The Government launched a campaign in April to encourage people feeling unwell to seek medical attention and go to hospital if necessary after A&E admissions were found to be significantly below average.

Professor of Applied Statistics at The Open University, Kevin McConway, said: “This new statistical bulletin from ONS provides relevant information for those of us - including me - who have been concerned for some time that numbers of deaths in people’s homes have been running well above the average level from recent years.

"At the height of the pandemic in April and May, there were many more deaths in every kind of location than the average level over the last five years, and a great number of them involved Covid-19."


"But since the end of May, the pattern has been different, numbers of deaths in hospitals fell to below their average level of the time of year, and to a lesser extent the same thing happened in care homes."

In England, deaths due to COVID-19 was the seventh leading cause of death in private homes while for females it was the 11th leading cause.

Other fatal health issues causing high-than-average deaths at home include various types of cancers and respiratory diseases.
The big question is whether or not the reduction in deaths for non covid19 reasons in hospitals is merely replaced or is more than replaced by the increase in non covid19 deaths in homes. My very strong gut suspicion is that it will be more.

If true, when these extra deaths - due to lock-down - are removed from the total death count for this year, even the small but significant rise in total deaths for the country for 2020 compared to the typical range is likely to significantly reduce and, perhaps, even vanish. Which, if it does, would mean Covid19 will have contributed nothing to total deaths for 2020
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