Lots of Peeps viewing but few posting.... come on post!

[alternative-energy]

Do you have to intellectualise everything?...Bloody hell it's £30!!

The intellectual bit was Fleming's words not mine! £30 for a hardback is not so very much when you consider it's 736 pages and 385000 words and some rather nice woodcut prints.

I'll take this extract

Bullshit. (1) The waffle produced by someone who is expected to know what he is talking about, but does not. (2) An accusation thrown at a person who is hoping to lift the discussion from the reductionist torpor into which it has sunk.

[biffvernon]

Oh but you stopped too soon and left out the third, serious, definition:

(3) Brief description of a content-free argument.

Or was that too intellectual?

It's referenced to

Harry Frankfurt (2005), On Bullshit, p 67.

which leads us to http://press.princeton.edu/titles/7929.html where we find:

One of the most salient features of our culture is that there is so much bullshit. Everyone knows this. Each of us contributes his share. But we tend to take the situation for granted. Most people are rather confident of their ability to recognize bullshit and to avoid being taken in by it. So the phenomenon has not aroused much deliberate concern. We have no clear understanding of what bullshit is, why there is so much of it, or what functions it serves. And we lack a conscientiously developed appreciation of what it means to us. In other words, as Harry Frankfurt writes, "we have no theory."

Frankfurt, one of the world's most influential moral philosophers, attempts to build such a theory here. With his characteristic combination of philosophical acuity, psychological insight, and wry humor, Frankfurt proceeds by exploring how bullshit and the related concept of humbug are distinct from lying. He argues that bullshitters misrepresent themselves to their audience not as liars do, that is, by deliberately making false claims about what is true. In fact, bullshit need not be untrue at all.

Rather, bullshitters seek to convey a certain impression of themselves without being concerned about whether anything at all is true. They quietly change the rules governing their end of the conversation so that claims about truth and falsity are irrelevant. Frankfurt concludes that although bullshit can take many innocent forms, excessive indulgence in it can eventually undermine the practitioner's capacity to tell the truth in a way that lying does not. Liars at least acknowledge that it matters what is true. By virtue of this, Frankfurt writes, bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are.

Fleming was extraordinarily well read, evidenced by the 1781 references in Lean Logic.

[alternative-energy]

Oh but you stopped too soon and left out the third, serious, definition:

(3) Brief description of a content-free argument.

Or was that too intellectual?

It's referenced to

Harry Frankfurt (2005), On Bullshit, p 67.

which leads us to http://press.princeton.edu/titles/7929.html where we find:

One of the most salient features of our culture is that there is so much bullshit. Everyone knows this. Each of us contributes his share. But we tend to take the situation for granted. Most people are rather confident of their ability to recognize bullshit and to avoid being taken in by it. So the phenomenon has not aroused much deliberate concern. We have no clear understanding of what bullshit is, why there is so much of it, or what functions it serves. And we lack a conscientiously developed appreciation of what it means to us. In other words, as Harry Frankfurt writes, "we have no theory."

Frankfurt, one of the world's most influential moral philosophers, attempts to build such a theory here. With his characteristic combination of philosophical acuity, psychological insight, and wry humor, Frankfurt proceeds by exploring how bullshit and the related concept of humbug are distinct from lying. He argues that bullshitters misrepresent themselves to their audience not as liars do, that is, by deliberately making false claims about what is true. In fact, bullshit need not be untrue at all.

Rather, bullshitters seek to convey a certain impression of themselves without being concerned about whether anything at all is true. They quietly change the rules governing their end of the conversation so that claims about truth and falsity are irrelevant. Frankfurt concludes that although bullshit can take many innocent forms, excessive indulgence in it can eventually undermine the practitioner's capacity to tell the truth in a way that lying does not. Liars at least acknowledge that it matters what is true. By virtue of this, Frankfurt writes, bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are.

Fleming was extraordinarily well read, evidenced by the 1781 references in Lean Logic.

#

It would seem you have no sense of humour

[biffvernon]

Arghhh....of course I have and I quite saw your point - just adding some more. Doh!

[alternative-energy]

Arghhh....of course I have and I quite saw your point - just adding some more. Doh!

Sorry if I was teasing, I am a bear of little brain.

[biffvernon]

[Ludwig]

People who come to this forum to disrupt it or come here and are doing absolutely nothing themselves are the ones who should be pilloried. If you come into that category only you will know. It is possible to do something positive whatever your circumstances but it is probably easier to sit on your arse.

I'm not sure whether you're implying that I come on this forum to disrupt it, but that is not my intention. I appreciate you have views as strong as mine on the subject of "where Britain went wrong". And no, I don't blame Thatcher for everything; I'm well aware that Britain was in a total mess in the 1970s. I do feel that she and her party bear most of the responsibility for the rather unpleasant place Britain has become. And I blame New Labour for this as well, because they had the opportunity to balance the excesses of Thatcherism by reinstilling in the population a sense of community and of values other than material gain; instead they continued Thatcher's project, just with more public spending, which increased further the public's sense of entitlement.

As for whether I doing absolutely nothing... I'm not doing much, it's true, but it seems ridiculous to argue that I should be pilloried for this. I've attended some Transition Town meetings, but my heart wasn't in it. Most of the other group members - a very nice and intelligent group of people, I hasten to mention - didn't really seem to get the economic implications of Peak Oil... so there was talk of attracting investment for this and that green project, when my view is that all investment is probably a waste of time.

I know people who say, "Maybe we are stuffed, but I at least want to be able to say I tried", and I admire that attitude, but I don't share it. I need to feel 70% certain that something is going to succeed in order to be motivated; and my confidence that the Transition Town movement can save us all is about 5%.

I met a Chinese woman a few months ago, and the word she used to described the British (well, the young British) was "spoilt". And it's true: successive governments have bought our votes with promises that we can live a life of all take and no give.

I have a gut feeling that we are going to be - indeed in a sense need to be - punished for our complacency. It's been suggested to me that this view is just a manifestation of personal neurosis, but I don't think it is. Only time will tell, anyhow.

[hardworkinghippy]

I've not been posting recently because I'm busy helping to develop a strong local community. super insulating our new extension and finishing off rooms, designing a rocket mass stove, designing and ordering stuff for more solar and wind energy, getting in garden stuff and making conserves.

I can't be bothered with arguments or pleading with people to take notice of the way things are going and I'm not up to date on the state of peak oil any more, so I can't add much in the way of information. I come in every day and read the posts, although I tend to skip a few paragraphs of the daft ego stuff.

I still feel part of this on line "community" and I'm glad to have met all you folk who've helped to keep me sane for the past few years and I hope that we continue to help each other for some time to come.

[biffvernon]

People who come to this forum to disrupt it or come here and are doing absolutely nothing themselves are the ones who should be pilloried.

And those who encourage them, aka troll-feeding, should also be pilloried.
(And I'm not talking about Ludwig )

[2 As and a B]

re the OP, try doing without PS for a week or two, and then come back with fresh eyes. Why would anyone want to post here?

[madibe]

QED

[Kieran]

re the OP, try doing without PS for a week or two, and then come back with fresh eyes. Why would anyone want to post here?

Good point. The person who told me about this site had no problems accepting PO and the need to start preparations in her life but wouldn't touch these forums with a bargepole. She just said she wouldn't have anything to do with "that lot". She might have muttered something about nutjobs.

That was back in 2006, can just imagine what she'd think of the place now.

[mikepepler]

Thought I'd come back and check on this thread having posted a few days ago... I think reading through the last few pages makes it obvious why some people aren't interested in participating any more...

[stumuzz]

Quite.

[kenneal - lagger]

People who come to this forum to disrupt it or come here and are doing absolutely nothing themselves are the ones who should be pilloried.

And those who encourage them, aka troll-feeding, should also be pilloried.
(And I'm not talking about Ludwig )

I, among other people, some not a million miles away from you, Biff, have had discussions with certain people about technical matters which need to be discussed. If there is a technical thread or matter in which people are being mislead I will take that matter up if it's within my area of competence. If there is something without my area of competence and I want a mainstream view on it I will ask.

If you think that either of those is troll feeding, that's up to you and you don't have to join in.