Id cards In the Uk

RookieJr · Post by **RookieJr** » 28 Jan 2006, 19:49

Such a scheme cannot exist if enough people resist it. I really hope that people will resist the idea but I have a funny feeling they won't.

Blue Peter · Post by **Blue Peter** » 30 Jan 2006, 16:34

RogerCO wrote:I agree with Lukasz here - what is all the paranoia about.

The existance of an ID card is neither necessary nor sufficient for a 'police state'

In fact I would say that way of confirming an individual's identity is a good thing for any society - what are you afraid of. If you wish to be part of society then you have duties and responsibilities as well as rights in your dealing with others and the state.

As a matter of interest, Roger, a while back, I thought that you said that you feared for democracy in the coming years, and that we might have to struggle to save it (and you were going to write "drekly" upon such an issue). Your stance here doesn't quite seem to square with that. Though, as you say, ID cards and the end of democracy are not necessarily linked, ID cards of the proposed type may not be a step in the right direction. Have you changed your mind on things?

Peter.

RogerCO · Post by **RogerCO** » 30 Jan 2006, 23:22

Blue Peter wrote:As a matter of interest, Roger, a while back, I thought that you said that you feared for democracy in the coming years, and that we might have to struggle to save it (and you were going to write "drekly" upon such an issue). Your stance here doesn't quite seem to square with that. Though, as you say, ID cards and the end of democracy are not necessarily linked, ID cards of the proposed type may not be a step in the right direction. Have you changed your mind on things?
Peter.

Thanks for prompting me Peter, I have started a separate thread as its not really ID cards - just to say here that I haven't changed my opinion - ID cards are an irrelevance - they may have some positive uses (eg in managing a system of TEQs), or they may just be a waste or resources (as Joe pointed out above). Having a scheme or not will make no differenc to the end of democracy and the possible end of human civilization that could follow.

fishertrop · Post by **fishertrop** » 31 Jan 2006, 08:29

RogerCO wrote:I agree with Lukasz here - what is all the paranoia about.

The existance of an ID card is neither necessary nor sufficient for a 'police state'

It's not the concept of ID cards I have problem is that I have ZERO faith that the powers-that-be will implement them in a way consistant with my interests, and that of the masses.

There are a million other things the law-enforcement-blok could ask for that have some genuine crime-prevention aspects to them BUT also run countrary to the kind of society I want to live in.

The biggest factor is not another system, law, extra power, procedure or information node it surely the credibility of the people that use them and the faith the public have that they will be used correctly.

The state in Orwells 1984 could legitamitely be said to have a crime rate of virtually nill, but at what cost?

Take for example, introducing laws over the last decade or so that on the face of it have merit but are then subverted in spirit, if not in letter, for things entirely contrary to civic good - such as supression of public demonstration - this suggests to me that the collective law-enforcement institution in the UK (as opposed to many fine individuals within) cannot be relied on to act in my interest.

And thats before we get into the stagging volumes of cash that will be wasted on implementation....

fishertrop · Post by **fishertrop** » 10 Feb 2006, 21:16

Pentagon Database Leaves No Child Alone
By Mike Ferner
02/03/06 "ICH"

http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... e11783.htm

Since 2002, the U.S. Department of Defense (DoD) has spent a half-million dollars a year creating a database it claims is ?arguably the largest repository of 16-25 year-old youth data in the country, containing roughly 30 million records.? In Pentagonese the database is part of the Joint Advertising, Marketing Research and Studies (JAMRS) project. Its purpose, along with additional millions spent on polling and marketing research, is to give the Pentagon?s $4 billion annual recruiting budget maximum impact. And it has lit a fire under civil libertarians, privacy advocates and counter-recruiting activists across the nation.

Post by **mikepepler** » 11 Feb 2006, 09:43

fishertrop wrote:Pentagon Database Leaves No Child Alone

I guess they need it to make thier conscription plans work?

fishertrop · Post by **fishertrop** » 14 Feb 2006, 15:29

US plans massive data sweep
By Mark Clayton | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
February 09, 2006

The US government is developing a massive computer system that can collect huge amounts of data and, by linking far-flung information from blogs and e-mail to government records and intelligence reports, search for patterns of terrorist activity.

The system - parts of which are operational, parts of which are still under development - is already credited with helping to foil some plots. It is the federal government's latest attempt to use broad data-collection and powerful analysis in the fight against terrorism. But by delving deeply into the digital minutiae of American life, the program is also raising concerns that the government is intruding too deeply into citizens' privacy.

"We don't realize that, as we live our lives and make little choices, like buying groceries, buying on DODGY TAX AVOIDERS, Googling, we're leaving traces everywhere," says Lee Tien, a staff attorney with the Electronic Frontier Foundation. "We have an attitude that no one will connect all those dots. But these programs are about connecting those dots - analyzing and aggregating them - in a way that we haven't thought about. It's one of the underlying fundamental issues we have yet to come to grips with."

MacG · Post by **MacG** » 14 Feb 2006, 15:54

fishertrop wrote:US plans massive data sweep
By Mark Clayton | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
February 09, 2006

The US government is developing a massive computer system that can collect huge amounts of data and, by linking far-flung information from blogs and e-mail to government records and intelligence reports, search for patterns of terrorist activity.

The system - parts of which are operational, parts of which are still under development - is already credited with helping to foil some plots. It is the federal government's latest attempt to use broad data-collection and powerful analysis in the fight against terrorism. But by delving deeply into the digital minutiae of American life, the program is also raising concerns that the government is intruding too deeply into citizens' privacy.

"We don't realize that, as we live our lives and make little choices, like buying groceries, buying on DODGY TAX AVOIDERS, Googling, we're leaving traces everywhere," says Lee Tien, a staff attorney with the Electronic Frontier Foundation. "We have an attitude that no one will connect all those dots. But these programs are about connecting those dots - analyzing and aggregating them - in a way that we haven't thought about. It's one of the underlying fundamental issues we have yet to come to grips with."

I'm not overly worried. Sounds like some IT companies have managed to put their teeth in a fat chunk of taxpayer money, but that is the only thing to be upset about.

This bloody data-mining thing went rather out of fashion with the 2000 IT stock market crash, and that for a good reason - it does not work!

As soon as you start to use data for something it was not intended to be used for when collected, all hell turns lose and all you get out is pure crap. When seeing how darn difficult it is to implement a laboratory information management system where data is carefully conditioned before collection, I just see pure nightmare if an attempt was made at unconditioned data.

"Total Information Awareness"? Good luck - you will need all luck in the world to make that bird fly!

Blue Peter · Post by **Blue Peter** » 14 Feb 2006, 16:06

MacG wrote:As soon as you start to use data for something it was not intended to be used for when collected, all hell turns lose and all you get out is pure crap. When seeing how darn difficult it is to implement a laboratory information management system where data is carefully conditioned before collection, I just see pure nightmare if an attempt was made at unconditioned data.

"Total Information Awareness"? Good luck - you will need all luck in the world to make that bird fly!

The proponents of the system do not seem overly worried about the accuracy of any information, as we found out with Iraq,

Peter.

MacG · Post by **MacG** » 14 Feb 2006, 16:38

Blue Peter wrote:
MacG wrote:As soon as you start to use data for something it was not intended to be used for when collected, all hell turns lose and all you get out is pure crap. When seeing how darn difficult it is to implement a laboratory information management system where data is carefully conditioned before collection, I just see pure nightmare if an attempt was made at unconditioned data.

"Total Information Awareness"? Good luck - you will need all luck in the world to make that bird fly!
The proponents of the system do not seem overly worried about the accuracy of any information, as we found out with Iraq,

Peter.

Come to think of Terry Gilliams old movie "Brazil". The fly in the teletype terminal changing "Tuttle" to "Buttle", with dire consequences for Harry Buttle...

By the way, that movie has recently been restored and released on DVD.

chubbygristle · Post by **chubbygristle** » 14 Feb 2006, 17:26

My objection to the scheme is predominantly on fiscal grounds. The millions earmarked for ID cards could be put to so much better use, such as subsidising renewables projects and rebuilding our rail & tram networks.

Thats my main concern too. It's going to be yet another outsourced (to incompetent f*ckwit companies) PFI waste of tax payers money to line the pockets of shareholders and fatcats. Not only that, there was a recent report published by corporate watch where people from the same companies that we have wasted our money on already with other similar PFI rubbish say that the whole thing is doomed to failure and will cost a small fortune. One of them was Unisys.

You can the read the report here...

http://www.corporatewatch.org.uk/?lid=2298

I can understand why the idea of an ID card system is appealing to the powers that be in the face of having to ration fuel / food etc in the coming years but as Joe pointed out, such money could be spend on actually preparing for the changes ahead such as funding permaculture courses, promoting sustainability awareness and even start subsidising local food production after the likes of Tesco, Asda et all have been allowed to systematically destroy them over the last couple of decades.

Just my 10pence worth.

In fact Monbiot only wrote today about another Privatisation scandal.. not related, but sums up the current administration's attitude...

http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2006/02 ... a-mugging/

and he's written many a times in the guardian (all archived on his site) about what a process of syphoning of public money to private interests these PFI schemes are...

skeptik · Post by **skeptik** » 14 Feb 2006, 19:50

chubbygristle wrote: and he's written many a times in the guardian (all archived on his site) about what a process of syphoning of public money to private interests these PFI schemes are...

Hey!... How else are ex-ministers going to 'earn' their lucrative non-executive directorships once they've retired from politics... Its not as if we pay them a lot in the UK. Got to stash it away for a comfortable retirement somehow.

Pixie · Post by **Pixie** » 15 Feb 2006, 22:19

skeptik wrote: I dont think it will never happen.

Well look what they just voted in...

RookieJr wrote: Such a scheme cannot exist if enough people resist it.

But the b*st*rds have decided that if you want NHS treatment or benefits or a passport you have to have an ID card - how's that for not compulsory? From the first time ID cards were mentioned I have always assumed that I would refuse to have one. Suddenly I am faced with the awful possibility that I may not be able to afford to refuse.

Several people said earlier in this list they didn't understand the problem with privacy - they'd nothing to hide. But lots of innocent people do have things to hide - I know enough people who do not want an abusive ex-partner or family member(s) to find them to know how important this is. Plus you may not have something to hide now, but as resources become scarcer things may change. Only a couple of weeks ago a rightwing American politician stated that as energy resources became scarcer they should only be for white Americans, which to me reads America should be white-only. Last year a horrible British politician openly said he didn't see why the NHS should waste its money on disabled children. And we've heard plenty in the media about the ongoing debate on whether or not to treat obese people and smokers for certain diseases.

All this sort of detail about you will be on the bio-metric data on your card, a chip that ordinary people won't be able to read so we will have to trust the powers that be to tell us honestly what info about us is stored there and who has access to it both via the chip on the card and via the central database.

The Holocaust would have been so much more effecient with a database like that - instant access to the location of every Jew, Muslim, traveller, single mother, disabled person, gay person, and, with the help of Google, everyone on this and other 'subversive' forums.

Paranoid? Maybe, but to be honest, to me this is the scary side of Peak Oil, not the challenge of living with less.

Bandidoz · Post by **Bandidoz** » 15 Feb 2006, 22:55

I used to think like that, but with knowing more history I do not any longer.

To me it's like saying a medical problem is in the symptom rather than the cause.

Once again I say let history tell its tale.

When times get desparate, people will turn on their "neighbours" who they tolerated for a number of years. Granted ID cards could make "cleansing" more efficient, although lists of the information already exist. I suspect it would be very unlikely that a layperson could use the database for stalking.

A Government agency can already very easily find out who is disabled, who is "subversive", and what peoples' religion is.

In Nazi Germany, Jews were reported by their Neighbours; this didn't need ID cards, the propaganda was enough. Expulsion of Jews happened elsewhere, such as in Britain in 1290AD : http://www.heretical.com/British/jews1290.html

The final step was taken on 18 July 1290 by an Act of the King in his Council. It happened to be (long since remembered with awe) the fast of the ninth of Ab, the anniversary of manifold disasters for Jews, from the destruction of Jerusalem onwards. On the same day writs were issued to the sheriffs of many English counties, informing them that by Royal Decree all Jews were ordered to leave England before 1 November; any who remained were declared liable to be executed. The news of the expulsion was greeted by the population with great joy. Parliament promptly agreed to royal demand for a fifteenth of moveables and a tenth of the spiritual revenue, in taxation against Jews.

The Jews of London started their long journey to the coast "under the custody of the Lord King," bearing the Scrolls of the Law, "una cum libris suis" (at one with their book). On board ship, at Queenborough, at the mouth of the Thames, ship's anchor was cast at ebb-tide and the ship grounded on a sandbank. The ship's Master then invited his passengers to stretch their legs. When the tide reversed direction so did the Master, climbing back on board while telling the helpless Jews that they "ought to cry unto Moses, by whose conduct their fathers passed through the Red Sea." The Jews all drowned but the Master also met a bad end. He was hanged when the pious Edward learned of his mockery and manslaughter.

In short I would argue that the fear of "ID cards ameliorating genocide" is an unfounded one; history demonstrates that genocide occurs due to the motivation when the conditions are there - ID cards or not.

extractorfan · Post by **extractorfan** » 17 Feb 2006, 08:56

Was a very good debate on this on BBC Question Time last night, it seems like we have some considerable unrest over this issue and many others.

Peter Hain had a very hard time and seemed to handle it well, it looked to me like he was changing his mind.

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