Euro elections, 4th June

[DominicJ]

UKIP, all the North West Tory MEP candidates are EUphiles.

[marknorthfield]

I can't believe most people have put down the green party... you don't seriously believe they'll actually make a difference do you?

At least with proportional representation the vote actually matters in terms of getting Caroline Lucas and Jean Lambert re-elected. Does their presence make a difference? Yes, because it shows that green politicians are electable: an important campaigning point and still a novelty for this country. Also, what hope do we have without sustainability arguments being forcefully articulated and mainstream parties being held to account for their vacillations?

If you don't vote then you're guaranteed to get the representatives you deserve.

[RenewableCandy]

It has to be said that, even if the Greens won't rule the roost for years, they still "punch aboe their weight" wherever they get in (EU, Councils, Scottish Parly, Welsh Assembly etc).

[caspian]

In 37 years of voting I've never managed to vote for a winning candidate. Are all my votes wasted or do they add a little encouragement and influence?

Well, one could argue that it reinforces the belief that the system is just fine and that Parliamentary democracy is the only answer. After all, if people keep voting then it must be working fine right?

[caspian]

If you don't vote then you're guaranteed to get the representatives you deserve.

Is that a variation of "you've only got to worry if you've got something to hide"?

We'll get the same bunch of useless corrupt non-entities whichever way we vote. And what if you don't actually think our democracy is worth saving? We seem to regard it as self-evident that our system is great, even when face with overwhelming evidence that it's very far from being great. How will voting for a political party change that?

As someone said on the wireless the other day, if this was France we'd be on to the Sixth Republic. Says a lot about how our revolutionary zeal has been neutered.

[gug]

Wot no British Nazionalizts??

UKIP are on the list - and two people have voted for them!

Do you have any evidence to backup this assertion that UKip are "wolves in sheeps clothing" ?

I'm no way a "little englander" and wouldn't vote BNP if they were the last party on the planet, but UKIP seem to be one of the very few parties actually very publicly pointing out how corrupt the EU is and seeming to try and fight it.

I'm not of the "business classes" that Nigel Farrage seems to be and I have no doubt that like most people in politics, they have their own agendas but i'd be interested to hear about the "Wolves" that you hint at.

I'm not interested in "Right" or "Left" (i dont trust either side (and could never figure out why there was only 2 sides!)- but i am interested in trying to ensure that if we have a "democracy" its as democratic as possible.


(before anyone points out how appalling our own lot are at westminster - (and i agree) but at least they are "our" lot (at least geographically speaking) that are ostensibly there to serve us.

I've never considered myself a stereotypical guardian reader, but I do find the idea of "nationalism" distasteful. I've not noticed any particular "flag-waving" with UKip (i may have missed it and am happy to be convinced against my current voting choice). I see the whole "keep the pound" thing as not out of nationalism, but out of the fact that once you surrender your economy to outside control you no longer have any real control over your own future (BAU or otherwise)

[RogerCO]

In 37 years of voting I've never managed to vote for a winning candidate. Are all my votes wasted or do they add a little encouragement and influence?

They are not wasted if they have been votes for a party outside the big three then they almost certainly have added both encouragement and influence.
The more votes UKIP and English Democrats pick up the more eurosceptic will the Conservatives tend to become, the more votes the RMT backed No2EU pick up the more Labour will move in that direction, the more votes the Greens pick up the more the big two start to turn their greenwash into green action.

On the other hand if your loosing votes have all been for one of the big three then all you have done is contributed towards the clustering which makes them almost indistinguishable on many measures as they all fight for the perceived middle ground.

It is a tragedy the way our political discourse has been undermined in my lifetime - many causes, but the only way to reclaim politics for the people is to vote for different parties. And I, of course, being a member and candidate urge you to vote Green on June 4th.

[PaulS]

... and where is MK, may I ask? (Mebyon Kernow, the party for Cornwall)

[RogerCO]

Do you have any evidence to backup this assertion that UKip are "wolves in sheeps clothing" ?

I'm no way a "little englander" and wouldn't vote BNP if they were the last party on the planet, but UKIP seem to be one of the very few parties actually very publicly pointing out how corrupt the EU is and seeming to try and fight it.

Actually almost all the non big three (grey) parties are pointing out how corrupt the EU is (and to be fair many in the grey parties also point this out). Where they differ is what to do about it. UKIP seem to have lost at least one MEP to corruption whilst deploring it. (also happy to employ Polish builders whilst condemning economic migration) and want to walk away from it. The others want (apart from the big two) want to engage and reform it.

I'm not of the "business classes" that Nigel Farrage seems to be and I have no doubt that like most people in politics, they have their own agendas but i'd be interested to hear about the "Wolves" that you hint at.

I wouldn't use the 'wolves' phrase as I think UKIP are pretty open about what they are - a party of business interests in favour of free trade and free movement of capital, playing slightly nationalist card (their freepost features a prominent picture of Churchill - the politician from 100 years ago) but deeply misguided about the effects of leaving the EU - they claim outside the EU business would be free of regulation; but if business wanted to trade with the EU they would still have to abide by all the regulations and have no influence over their formulation - doh!
Greens on the other hand favour fair trade and free movement of people.

I'm not interested in "Right" or "Left" (i dont trust either side (and could never figure out why there was only 2 sides!)- but i am interested in trying to ensure that if we have a "democracy" its as democratic as possible.

Check out http://www.politicalcompass.org for a slightly more sophisticated view than left-right

(before anyone points out how appalling our own lot are at westminster - (and i agree) but at least they are "our" lot (at least geographically speaking) that are ostensibly there to serve us.

As are (or should be) our MEPs

I've never considered myself a stereotypical guardian reader, but I do find the idea of "nationalism" distasteful. I've not noticed any particular "flag-waving" with UKip (i may have missed it and am happy to be convinced against my current voting choice).

Churchill ??? "Put Your Country Before Any Political Party" to quote from their freepost leaflet?

I see the whole "keep the pound" thing as not out of nationalism, but out of the fact that once you surrender your economy to outside control you no longer have any real control over your own future (BAU or otherwise)

Which is why we need a slightly less simplistic approach - summed up perhaps as "single currency bad, common currency good" - roughly one aspect of the Green position - against 'joining' the Euro but in favour of multiple and overlapping local and supranational economies - the Saltash Shilling, The British Pound, The Continental Euro, and the Global Yuan all co-existing and being used appropriately.

[waermund]

I'll never vote again. Our votes give "them" a legitimacy they do not deserve (whichever party...) and allows them to make decisions on our behalf without real consultation other than once every four years or so. How many of us voted for the Iraq fiasco?

I see "not voting" as an extension of going off grid.(which I havent admittedly managed ). If nothing else I s'pose it's a passive act of rebellion against a system I do not like.

W

[RogerCO]

... and where is MK, may I ask? (Mebyon Kernow, the party for Cornwall)

In Cornwall of course

Seriously though, if you want a Cornish MEP then you had better vote Green as I am No2 on the Green Euro list so there is a better chance of me being elected as MEP than Dick Cole ! None of the other parties big enough to get an MEP or three has anyone from Cornwall on their lists. (Actually Lab might have a Cornish person at no6 - but that is less likely than me, or possibly even Dick, getting elected

[gug]

Do you have any evidence to backup this assertion that UKip are "wolves in sheeps clothing" ?

I'm no way a "little englander" and wouldn't vote BNP if they were the last party on the planet, but UKIP seem to be one of the very few parties actually very publicly pointing out how corrupt the EU is and seeming to try and fight it.

Actually almost all the non big three (grey) parties are pointing out how corrupt the EU is (and to be fair many in the grey parties also point this out). Where they differ is what to do about it. UKIP seem to have lost at least one MEP to corruption whilst deploring it. (also happy to employ Polish builders whilst condemning economic migration) and want to walk away from it. The others want (apart from the big two) want to engage and reform it.

Ok, but i havent seen any memorable speeches by the other parties actually in the european parliament ( in fairness, they may exist, i just havent seen them)

I dont have a problem with "europe" and free trade and movement either.
I'd be surprised (and suspicious of anyone who really did - because it all gets a bit nationalistic at that point - but free trade and cooperation doesnt have to mean domination by and rule by europe

I'm not of the "business classes" that Nigel Farrage seems to be and I have no doubt that like most people in politics, they have their own agendas but i'd be interested to hear about the "Wolves" that you hint at.

I wouldn't use the 'wolves' phrase as I think UKIP are pretty open about what they are - a party of business interests in favour of free trade and free movement of capital, playing slightly nationalist card (their freepost features a prominent picture of Churchill - the politician from 100 years ago) but deeply misguided about the effects of leaving the EU - they claim outside the EU business would be free of regulation; but if business wanted to trade with the EU they would still have to abide by all the regulations and have no influence over their formulation - doh!
Greens on the other hand favour fair trade and free movement of people.

I havent seen their leaflets and (here goes gug being a bit controversial) i'm a bit disappointed because churchill was an awful lot worse than people generally imagine (Gallipoli, but mainly the absolutely appalling treatment of the Greeks during wwII) - when it came down to it, Churchill didnt give a rats about democracy for others in europe either.
To trade with europe would certainly mean abiding by their regulations with respect to trade. Doesnt mean that its either required or wise to hand over control of your whole economy nor suddenly decide that you dont want to decide on your own laws anymore.
We've been trading with europe for thousands of years without having undemocratic treaties forced upon us.

I'm not interested in "Right" or "Left" (i dont trust either side (and could never figure out why there was only 2 sides!)- but i am interested in trying to ensure that if we have a "democracy" its as democratic as possible.

Check out http://www.politicalcompass.org for a slightly more sophisticated view than left-right
[/quote]

Yes, i've been on there and know where i sit (generally on the left/anarchist corner) - but political compass is quite general in itself.

(before anyone points out how appalling our own lot are at westminster - (and i agree) but at least they are "our" lot (at least geographically speaking) that are ostensibly there to serve us.

As are (or should be) our MEPs
[/quote]

But our MEPs now not only have to get consensus between themselves, they have to argue with the competing requirements of 29(?) other countries.

I've never considered myself a stereotypical guardian reader, but I do find the idea of "nationalism" distasteful. I've not noticed any particular "flag-waving" with UKip (i may have missed it and am happy to be convinced against my current voting choice).

Churchill ??? "Put Your Country Before Any Political Party" to quote from their freepost leaflet?
[/quote]

Like i say, i havent seen their leaflet and I certainly dont particularly admire churchill - although frankly its no worse than thatch wrapping herself in a flag and sitting on a tank.
Politicians are supposed to represent their constituents so putting your countries interests first, in a european context , whilst not particularly subtle (or attractive to me) is hardly controversial.
Without wishing to be rude, you appear to be wrapping yourself in the cornish flag - Am i to assume that your interests lay in putting cornwall first ?

I see the whole "keep the pound" thing as not out of nationalism, but out of the fact that once you surrender your economy to outside control you no longer have any real control over your own future (BAU or otherwise)

Which is why we need a slightly less simplistic approach - summed up perhaps as "single currency bad, common currency good" - roughly one aspect of the Green position - against 'joining' the Euro but in favour of multiple and overlapping local and supranational economies - the Saltash Shilling, The British Pound, The Continental Euro, and the Global Yuan all co-existing and being used appropriately.[/quote]
[/quote]

Dont we already have multiple economies. Why do they need to "overlap".
If your above paragraph is the best way to go (it may well be) then thats fine, but that is absolutely in the complete opposite direction of those that hold the power in europe are headed and want to be.

[DominicJ]

they claim outside the EU business would be free of regulation; but if business wanted to trade with the EU they would still have to abide by all the regulations and have no influence over their formulation - doh!

So Burkina Fassu, New Zealand, Canada and Argentina should join the EU?
They all trade with it, but arent in it, and dont seem that put out by the rules it enforces on products within it.

And of course, UK companies that want to trade with China have to meet chineese regulations, fancy becoming a province?

[Keepz]

they claim outside the EU business would be free of regulation; but if business wanted to trade with the EU they would still have to abide by all the regulations and have no influence over their formulation - doh!

So Burkina Fassu, New Zealand, Canada and Argentina should join the EU?
They all trade with it, but arent in it, and dont seem that put out by the rules it enforces on products within it.

Perhaps not; but they should be pretty pleased that they only have to meet one set of product standards when importing to the EU, rather than 27 different sets. Having said which, there have been various cases where importers have been thoroughly put out by the rules the EU enforces on imported products, notably wholly disproportionate import bans on food products on the basis of a slight suspicion of a possibility of a tiny health risk or impossibly high requirements as to what constitutes "organic".

[WolfattheDoor]

Do you have any evidence to backup this assertion that UKip are "wolves in sheeps clothing" ?

On behalf of all wolves, we protest at being compared to these people!