HS2

Our transport is heavily oil-based. What are the alternatives?

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Post by emordnilap »

Following the newly-commissioned +6,000 mile rail route to Madrid, from near-ish Shanghai, plus extremely ambitious talk of a new trans-Siberian route across the Bering strait to Alaska, is rail set for a long and secure future? Or do you see this as just more deliveries of Chinese crud?
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Post by Tarrel »

emordnilap wrote:Following the newly-commissioned +6,000 mile rail route to Madrid, from near-ish Shanghai, plus extremely ambitious talk of a new trans-Siberian route across the Bering strait to Alaska, is rail set for a long and secure future? Or do you see this as just more deliveries of Chinese crud?
Kind of reminds of the Donald Fagen song "International Geophysical Year" (ex Steely Dan).

Lyrics and performance here:

http://lyrics.wikia.com/Donald_Fagen:I.G.Y.

How dreams can be shattered, eh?
Engage in geo-engineering. Plant a tree today.
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Post by biffvernon »

The impasse suggests that HS2 chiefs may have to end the line at Old Oak Common,
So that's the first four miles that isn't going to be built. Why bother with Birmingham then, when one could save money by stopping at Solihull?
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biffvernon
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Post by biffvernon »

Osborne is asking the Chinese to bid for contracts for HS2 before decision to build is taken (anyway, it will never be built).
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Post by biffvernon »

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adam2
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Post by adam2 »

I expect that HS2 will eventually be built, but don't hold your breath!

I expect that some de-speccing and value engineering will be applied and that it wont be that much faster than existing routes, probably about 140 or 155 MPH.
A new line to the north is needed as much for increased capacity as for increased speed. The existing west coast route is full, and with a growing population, AND a growing proportion of that population choosing rail, more capacity is becoming urgent.
Rail freight is increasing and together with local passenger trains could make better use of the existing line once the faster and longer distance services move to HS2.

The electricity demand is certainly a cause for concern, but probably better than the extra FF burnt by cars and aircraft instead.
Electricity can be obtained from renewables and a fair proportion already is. Aircraft, and cars suitable for long journeys at motorway speeds are almost totally FF reliant.
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Post by johnhemming2 »

The issue is a capacity issue. If you are going to increase capacity the lines might as well be straight. Straight railway lines are not necessarily much more expensive than curvy ones.
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Post by boisdevie »

If it's a capacity issue then why not keep the lines we have but have longer trains or double decker trains? Surely even adjusting bridges would be cheaper than a brand new line?
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Post by johnhemming2 »

boisdevie wrote:Surely even adjusting bridges would be cheaper than a brand new line?
It would be nice if you could tell me where the adjustment knobs are. Then I could tell the government how they could twiddle a few knobs and save having to create new lines.
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Post by adam2 »

boisdevie wrote:If it's a capacity issue then why not keep the lines we have but have longer trains or double decker trains? Surely even adjusting bridges would be cheaper than a brand new line?
Double decker trains would require the replacement of huge numbers of bridges, and most of the electrification structures, almost certainly more expensive than a new route.
The scale of engineering works required would also mean years of disruption.
Longer trains are a remote possibility, but would require a lot of land purchase and demolition.
Considering just Euston station, the platforms would need to be extended across not just the station forecourt, but also across the Euston road.
Similarly large scale alterations would be needed at other principle stations, with some* alterations at even small stations*

The present long distance trains on the west coast route are up to 11 coaches in length. Trains of twice that length would probably be full in a year or two, so for the long term we need to consider trains of up to 36 coaches, not actually impossible as many freight trains are that long. But think of the walk to the other end ! moving walkways needed at larger stations. The train length would be comparable to the distance between some stations on the underground.
(And I would expect a Pullman restaurant car EACH END of a train that long :D )

*Smaller stations would not need platforms long enough for the entire length of the train, passengers would have to board and alight from the portion in the platform. However the whole length would have to fit between signals and junctions.
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adam2
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Post by adam2 »

BTW we have had "sort of" double deck trains in the UK, and I am old enough to admit to having travelled on them !
IIRC, they ran on the main line just into the 1970s ! No restaurant though :(
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Mark
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Post by Mark »

biffvernon wrote:
The impasse suggests that HS2 chiefs may have to end the line at Old Oak Common,
So that's the first four miles that isn't going to be built. Why bother with Birmingham then, when one could save money by stopping at Solihull?
Going back in history, Crewe was tiny and the railway only went there because the good folk of Nantwich didn't want it....
In 100 years or so, Solihull might be a Metropolis and Birmingham a backwater.... :)
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biffvernon
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Post by biffvernon »

The May and Tyler report is published today:
HS2 The case for review and alternative http://biffvernon.blogspot.co.uk/2016/05/hs2.html
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BritDownUnder
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Post by BritDownUnder »

adam2 wrote: Longer trains are a remote possibility, but would require a lot of land purchase and demolition.
Considering just Euston station, the platforms would need to be extended across not just the station forecourt, but also across the Euston road.
Similarly large scale alterations would be needed at other principle stations, with some* alterations at even small stations*

The present long distance trains on the west coast route are up to 11 coaches in length. Trains of twice that length would probably be full in a year or two, so for the long term we need to consider trains of up to 36 coaches, not actually impossible as many freight trains are that long. But think of the walk to the other end ! moving walkways needed at larger stations. The train length would be comparable to the distance between some stations on the underground.
(And I would expect a Pullman restaurant car EACH END of a train that long :D )
In the Australian news there was a passenger train of length more than a kilometre. Admittedly this is a tourist train but such things are possible. There are also double decker trains in Sydney.

http://www.ntnews.com.au/news/centralia ... 5dd297968a
The train comprised 44 carriages and two locomotives with six restaurants on board.
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Post by clv101 »

Seems we're cancelling planned rail electrification works:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-40665659

Shame. These cost a tiny fraction of HS2... and in fact that unplanned bung to Northern Ireland would have gone a long way in paying for it.
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