Where are we on the Limits to Growth model?

Forum for general discussion of Peak Oil / Oil depletion; also covering related subjects

Moderator: Peak Moderation

vtsnowedin
Posts: 6593
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:14 pm
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

Post by vtsnowedin »

kenneal - lagger wrote: And by hold its value I'm not talking about the monetary value just the intrinsic value of having somewhere where you can grow food and fuel.
I would say that that is it's real monetary value. Here the state calls that the "use value" and limits enrolled parcels to that level of taxation even though the market price is often five times as much.
kenneal - lagger
Site Admin
Posts: 12401
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:35 am
Location: Newbury, Berkshire
Contact:

Post by kenneal - lagger »

"Use value" - "intrinsic value"? Much the same thing I think. It's the value of the fuel and food that you can get off it which has always meant that landowners had the power in a society.
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez
raspberry-blower
Posts: 1868
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 11:26 am

Post by raspberry-blower »

Time to resurrect the Land Value Tax debate, perhaps?
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools - Douglas Adams.
User avatar
emordnilap
Posts: 14625
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:36 pm
Location: Hou�sʇlʎ' ᴉʇ,s ɹ��llʎ uoʇ �oɹʇɥ ʇɥ� �ɟɟoɹʇ' pou,ʇ �ʌ�u qoʇɥ�ɹ˙

Post by emordnilap »

raspberry-blower wrote:Time to resurrect the Land Value Tax debate, perhaps?
It was never not time. In fact, it was discussed with a few friends only recently, sparked by talking about the original ‘Monopoly’, which had alternative rules based on lvt.

Like all good ideas, it’s unacceptably simple. �
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
User avatar
emordnilap
Posts: 14625
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:36 pm
Location: Hou�sʇlʎ' ᴉʇ,s ɹ��llʎ uoʇ �oɹʇɥ ʇɥ� �ɟɟoɹʇ' pou,ʇ �ʌ�u qoʇɥ�ɹ˙

Post by emordnilap »

raspberry-blower wrote:Time to resurrect the Land Value Tax debate, perhaps?
It was never not time. It was discussed with a few friends recently, sparked by talking about the original ‘Monopoly’.

Like all good ideas, it’s unacceptably simple. �
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
raspberry-blower
Posts: 1868
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 11:26 am

Post by raspberry-blower »

emordnilap wrote:
raspberry-blower wrote:Time to resurrect the Land Value Tax debate, perhaps?
It was never not time. In fact, it was discussed with a few friends only recently, sparked by talking about the original ‘Monopoly’, which had alternative rules based on lvt.

Like all good ideas, it’s unacceptably simple. �
Yes the last time it came onto Parliament it was in 1911 by the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, one Winston S Churchill. It got rejected by the Lords.

An LVT would put an end to land banking which is what has been animating Ken (actually it gets on my nerves as well!)
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools - Douglas Adams.
User avatar
emordnilap
Posts: 14625
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:36 pm
Location: Hou�sʇlʎ' ᴉʇ,s ɹ��llʎ uoʇ �oɹʇɥ ʇɥ� �ɟɟoɹʇ' pou,ʇ �ʌ�u qoʇɥ�ɹ˙

Post by emordnilap »

raspberry-blower wrote:An LVT would put an end to land banking which is what has been animating Ken (actually it gets on my nerves as well!)
Precisely why it won't happen. Much like TEQs - it's far too good an idea.
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
raspberry-blower
Posts: 1868
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 11:26 am

Post by raspberry-blower »

emordnilap wrote:
raspberry-blower wrote:An LVT would put an end to land banking which is what has been animating Ken (actually it gets on my nerves as well!)
Precisely why it won't happen. Much like TEQs - it's far too good an idea.
LVT, TEQ and also a debt jubilee are all far too good an idea - the scale of the debt crisis has escalated dramatically since 2008

Charles Hugh Smith: The Coming Global Financial Crisis: Debt Exhaustion
A useful concept here is debt saturation: just as an absorbent material can only hold so much water, a corporation, household or economy can only support so much debt before servicing the debt reduces income and increases the risk of default.

The global economy is way past the point of maximum debt saturation, and so the next stop is debt exhaustion: a sharp increase in defaults, a rapid decline in demand for more debt, a collapse in asset bubbles that depend on debt and a resulting drop in economic activity, a.k.a. a deep and profound recession that cannot be "fixed" by lowering interest rates or juicing the creation of more debt.
A case of rapidly diminishing returns..
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools - Douglas Adams.
User avatar
emordnilap
Posts: 14625
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:36 pm
Location: Hou�sʇlʎ' ᴉʇ,s ɹ��llʎ uoʇ �oɹʇɥ ʇɥ� �ɟɟoɹʇ' pou,ʇ �ʌ�u qoʇɥ�ɹ˙

Post by emordnilap »

Will we get more bail-outs during the coming crash? We're still forking out billions for the last lot.

Politicians and their handlers learn little from their mistakes.
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
Little John
Posts: 8549
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:07 am
Location: UK

Post by Little John »

There will be an attempt at bailouts.

Followed by massive political backlashes

Followed by wars
User avatar
Lord Beria3
Posts: 5064
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:57 pm
Location: Moscow Russia
Contact:

Post by Lord Beria3 »

My latest blog post and how to plan for the coming decades of scarcity, disruption and chaos.

https://forecastingintelligence.org/201 ... ng-future/
Peace always has been and always will be an intermittent flash of light in a dark history of warfare, violence, and destruction
Little John
Posts: 8549
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:07 am
Location: UK

Post by Little John »

Got any evidence of "...The shocking return of anti-Semitism within the UK Labour party ..."?
kenneal - lagger
Site Admin
Posts: 12401
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:35 am
Location: Newbury, Berkshire
Contact:

Post by kenneal - lagger »

LB, you as well as the MSM are trying to conflate anti Semitism with anti Zionism. I don't know why you are doing it but the MSM is doing it to try to get Corbyn to drop his antagonism towards the ethnic cleansing being carried out by the Israelis in Palestine. The Israelis are trying to force the Palestinians out of the West Bank into ghettos like Gaza where they can shoot them at will out of sight of their own more liberal people and of the MSM, so they they won't have to embarrass them to the extent that they will have to seriously report on the genocide that they, the Zionist Israelis, are undertaking.

I have no hatred of Jews in general, indeed one of my great grandfathers was one, but a Jew who supports the actions of the Zionist Israeli government against the Palestinians is akin to a Serbian supporter of the murderous Slobodan Milošević and deserves all he gets.

I also found that post rather confused in places. You are telling people that the future will not see the uninterrupted growth of the past but will rather see the opposite but then you go on to urge people to diversify their income streams into incomes from Stocks and Shares or doing up classic cars!!! Surely obtaining a defendable plot of land to grow your own food would be the first thing on the list. Investing in hand tools for a range of building and repair jobs and learning how to use them proficiently would come a close second.
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez
Little John
Posts: 8549
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:07 am
Location: UK

Post by Little John »

Exactly Ken.
User avatar
Lord Beria3
Posts: 5064
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:57 pm
Location: Moscow Russia
Contact:

Post by Lord Beria3 »

Nonsense! There is no ethnic cleanings of the Palestinians.

And the equalities commission is investigating anti-Semitism within the Labour party and they are hardly a right-wing organisation.

Anyway, don't really want to discuss this issue as you guys are clearly committed in your views and nothing I say or post will change your views.
Peace always has been and always will be an intermittent flash of light in a dark history of warfare, violence, and destruction
Post Reply