EU membership referendum debate thread

What can we do to change the minds of decision makers and people in general to actually do something about preparing for the forthcoming economic/energy crises (the ones after this one!)?

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emordnilap
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Post by emordnilap »

Yeah Chris, you've summed up what I was trying to say.
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Post by Little John »

clv101 wrote:The EU is pretty shocking, especially recently there's been a lot not to like. But it's nothing to the disaster that would befall this country were Westminster given a free hand.

I'm on the side of "stay in and reform it."
Yes, that pretty well sums up my position until recent times. For me, though, the balance of benefits/costs has pushed me to the other side of that equation.
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Post by emordnilap »

Trying to reform the EU is probably harder than reforming the Tories.
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

Yes to the last two posts, and I think today I made my mind up to vote to leave the EU. In many respects it hangs in the balance, but I have a very specific reason for disliking the amount of immigration into this country from Eastern European and baltic countries.

I think it is bonkers anyway to give up control of who can come to this country, and it is bonkers that people from relatively underpopulated places like Poland are allowed to come here in search of a better standard of living when in the long run it doesn't help either Poland or the UK for this movement of people from sparsely-populated to densely-populated places to take place. We are suffering from a housing crisis and are told that we need immigrants from places like Poland to build all the new houses. Hold on a moment. Where are these people living? In houses, I presume. So if they go back to Poland then maybe we won't need to build so many houses and we can keep what is left of our countryside as countryside and train and employ British people to fill any vacancies instead... This is not Rocket Science.

But for me there is an unusual and particular reason for wanting these immigrants to go back to where they came from. Today, yet again, I came across a Polish person wandering around with a bucket looking for fungi. There is a big argument going on at the moment about the rise in popularity of fungi foraging, but in reality only a small proportion of the rise in number of people doing it are actually British. Most of them are from the Baltic states and Eastern Europe, including most of the illegal commercial collectors. So it just happens to be strongly in my own best interest, because of my rather unusual line of work, for all these intra-EU migrants to be sent back home. And that tips the balance from a close run thing to "out".

And yes, the EU is doomed anyway and yes, the Tories are going to screw the poor anyway.

Out it is.
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Post by biffvernon »

cubes
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Post by cubes »

I think the EU, even with it's many faults, is a benefit to Britain. We can get some level of reform (eventually) if we are in - we have no influence whatsoever if we're out but are still hugely affected by it.

Plus it helps keep our stupid governments (of any colour) in some sort of check most of the time.

Britain on it's own is a small country with little influence, do you really want to be even closer the USA? I certainly don't.
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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

biffvernon wrote:EU does something sensible:
https://www.greenparty.org.uk/news/2015 ... usinesses/
EU solves a problem that its own bureaucracy created. It has done something less stupid.

WOW! I'm going to change my vote to "in". :roll:
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Post by clv101 »

cubes wrote:...do you really want to be even closer the USA? I certainly don't.
That's a good point, I expect a UK outside the EU would develop stronger ties to the US. I can't see much good coming of that.
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Post by AutomaticEarth »

UndercoverElephant wrote:Yes to the last two posts, and I think today I made my mind up to vote to leave the EU. In many respects it hangs in the balance, but I have a very specific reason for disliking the amount of immigration into this country from Eastern European and baltic countries.

I think it is bonkers anyway to give up control of who can come to this country, and it is bonkers that people from relatively underpopulated places like Poland are allowed to come here in search of a better standard of living when in the long run it doesn't help either Poland or the UK for this movement of people from sparsely-populated to densely-populated places to take place. We are suffering from a housing crisis and are told that we need immigrants from places like Poland to build all the new houses. Hold on a moment. Where are these people living? In houses, I presume. So if they go back to Poland then maybe we won't need to build so many houses and we can keep what is left of our countryside as countryside and train and employ British people to fill any vacancies instead... This is not Rocket Science.

But for me there is an unusual and particular reason for wanting these immigrants to go back to where they came from. Today, yet again, I came across a Polish person wandering around with a bucket looking for fungi. There is a big argument going on at the moment about the rise in popularity of fungi foraging, but in reality only a small proportion of the rise in number of people doing it are actually British. Most of them are from the Baltic states and Eastern Europe, including most of the illegal commercial collectors. So it just happens to be strongly in my own best interest, because of my rather unusual line of work, for all these intra-EU migrants to be sent back home. And that tips the balance from a close run thing to "out".

And yes, the EU is doomed anyway and yes, the Tories are going to screw the poor anyway.

Out it is.
Yep - this post says pretty much everything I was going to say, so just thought I'd quote it to save me writing anything :)
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biffvernon
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Post by biffvernon »

Best lecture on political economy & European democracy ever. All European citizens should listen carefully. Yanis Varoufakis.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQNN9U6 ... youtu.be&a
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Post by biffvernon »

Which comment should, I trust, encourage everyone else to listen to the whole lecture, including (and especially) the Q & A in which Yanis Varoufakis provides several profound insights off the cuff. Really quite brilliant and not at all what John H. would like to hear.
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Post by johnhemming2 »

I listened to the first 6 minutes it was mainly claptrap with the arguments that we should disqualify from position those who wish the positions of power.

I then put the video on again and fell asleep mainly to be fair because I am a bit drunk and quite tired. Having been woken up I listened to a bit more.

He has a valid critique that the structure of the eurozone does not have a valid legislature with the power to remove a government. Instead the structures of power are more oblique through ministerial representation. That means that the public debate is more disconnected from power.

That does not mean that the decisions of those who have power are not rational, however.
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

johnhemming2 wrote: That means that the public debate is more disconnected from power.

That does not mean that the decisions of those who have power are not rational, however.
These two sentences are, in my opinion, the most constructive contribution you have made to this community so far.
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Post by emordnilap »

If a right-winger attacks an opinion, that opinion is probably worth listening to.
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
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emordnilap
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Post by emordnilap »

biffvernon wrote:Best lecture on political economy & European democracy ever. All European citizens should listen carefully. Yanis Varoufakis.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQNN9U6 ... youtu.be&a
Yes.

The questions - actually his answers :lol: - at the end were extremely revealing.
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
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