US to arm Syrian rebels

[RenewableCandy]

I have heard some far-out opinions in my time, but begrudging the poor an education by people who are paying their own kids through school is not one of them. The nearest I've heard is that some people who have BUPA and the like (private health cover) have been heard on occasion to agitate for lower National Insurance contributions to compensate, on the grounds that they are putting less pressure on the NHS.

When some bright spark pointed out that it's the NHS that trains all the (British) medical staff in the UK, including the guys at BUPA etc, these people tended to shut up!

[Little John]

Hmmm... didn't I suggest some while ago that the USA was a deeply racially divided and racist nation?

As is the UK

Not like the US it isn't, and never was.

Despite several decades of the bastards trying to Americanise us and having admittedly pushed us a fair way down that road, there is still something buried in the British psyche that can smell the bullshit. Maybe it's several centuries of having to put up with such bullshit from our overlords that has given us that facility. A kind of psychological self-protection.

[vtsnowedin]

Hmmm... didn't I suggest some while ago that the USA was a deeply racially divided and racist nation?

As is the UK

Not like the US it isn't, and never was.

I take it you flunked out of UK and world history. Never heard of the "Sun never sets on the Empire” The East India company, The Hudson's Bay company, British rule of most of the middle east, The Boer war, The fate of Australian aborigines under British rule. etc. etc. etc.

[biffvernon]

Hmmm... didn't I suggest some while ago that the USA was a deeply racially divided and racist nation?

As is the UK

No, I really think you are wrong. I've never been to the USA but we do here see a great deal of what goes on in the States. The most direct was from a black friend of mine who visited New York and told me of experiences that would never be encountered in England.

[vtsnowedin]

[No, I really think you are wrong. I've never been to the USA but we do here see a great deal of what goes on in the States. The most direct was from a black friend of mine who visited New York and told me of experiences that would never be encountered in England.

What bothers me about your statement is your use of the word "Never". England has been quite racist in the past and even if you have achieved some level of tolerance and enlightenment at present there is no guarantee that it will withstand the economic upheavals you are likely to face in the coming years. I'd hold off on patting yourselves on the back as of yet as I suspect there is still room for improvement today and harder times ahead.

[Little John]

[No, I really think you are wrong. I've never been to the USA but we do here see a great deal of what goes on in the States. The most direct was from a black friend of mine who visited New York and told me of experiences that would never be encountered in England.

What bothers me about your statement is your use of the word "Never". England has been quite racist in the past and even if you have achieved some level of tolerance and enlightenment at present there is no guarantee that it will withstand the economic upheavals you are likely to face in the coming years. I'd hold off on patting yourselves on the back as of yet as I suspect there is still room for improvement today and harder times ahead.

Of course there is racism in the UK. Of course it is ugly. Of course we have the predictable appalling past of any post-empire nation. But, despite all of that, there is not and never has been the same kind of weird, white supremacism mixed up with religion here in the UK. Even secular white supremicism of the BNP kind is a cultuiral and political phenomenon that is largely seen as one to be ridiculed here in the UK and, to the extent that they are voted for in some sections of our society is more a function of political and economic desperation than it is of conviction.

As I said, we can largely smell that kind of bullshit from miles away

[UndercoverElephant]

As is the UK

Not like the US it isn't, and never was.

I take it you flunked out of UK and world history. Never heard of the "Sun never sets on the Empire” The East India company, The Hudson's Bay company, British rule of most of the middle east, The Boer war, The fate of Australian aborigines under British rule. etc. etc. etc.

Nothing wrong with my history. I repeat: The UK is not, and has never been, as deeply divided and racist as the US. Certainly our ancestors treated some peoples very badly, but there is nothing in British history that can be compared to the white/black division in the US.

[UndercoverElephant]

[No, I really think you are wrong. I've never been to the USA but we do here see a great deal of what goes on in the States. The most direct was from a black friend of mine who visited New York and told me of experiences that would never be encountered in England.

What bothers me about your statement is your use of the word "Never". England has been quite racist in the past

Not against a large percentage of its own population it hasn't.

I'd hold off on patting yourselves on the back as of yet as I suspect there is still room for improvement today and harder times ahead.

Patting ourselves on the back? We are saying that we aren't as bad as the US. That's still a very long way from patting ourselves on the back.

[biffvernon]

[No, I really think you are wrong. I've never been to the USA but we do here see a great deal of what goes on in the States. The most direct was from a black friend of mine who visited New York and told me of experiences that would never be encountered in England.

What bothers me about your statement is your use of the word "Never".

I used it because I meant it. My friend's experience of racism in New York just does not happen in London.

[vtsnowedin]

[. But, despite all of that, there is not and never has been the same kind of weird, white supremacism mixed up with religion here in the UK.

The troubles in Northern Ireland come to mind. Quite a few Britt’s seem to feel that the Irish and Scots are a different race just not a different color.
But enough of this, shouldn't we get back to the question of sending arms to Syria? Will the rest of NATO follow the American lead?

[biffvernon]

Quite a few Britt’s seem to feel that the Irish and Scots are a different race just not a different color.

No, no, no, that's just for comic effect as in "There was an Englishman, an Irishman and a Scott who..."

And we spell colour with a 'u', thankyou very much.

[UndercoverElephant]

[. But, despite all of that, there is not and never has been the same kind of weird, white supremacism mixed up with religion here in the UK.

The troubles in Northern Ireland come to mind.

That has absolutely nothing to do with racism.

Quite a few Britt’s seem to feel that the Irish and Scots are a different race just not a different color.

Erm...no.

But enough of this, shouldn't we get back to the question of sending arms to Syria? Will the rest of NATO follow the American lead?

Quite likely.

[PS_RalphW]

I am nervous of joining this thread. As always cultural animosities are deeply rooted in history. The Irish problem dates back about 400 years when a large number (most Scottish ?) settlers moved in and settled mostly in the NE corner at about the same time that Oliver Cromwell and later William of Orange did a fair bit of brutal conquest campaigning. The locals have never forgotten this, the nearest modern set up is Israel and Palestine. Then in 1922 England gave up trying to keep the rebellious Irish in the fold, apart from the NE corner which was at the time still majority loyalist.

There was a lot of blatant discrimination against original locals in NI and this became the Troubles in the 70s and 80s until the politicians got together in the 90s and relative peace since then. Unfortunately the underlying problems remain, and when central government subsidies start to dry up as they inevitably must, they will return.

It isn't racism, its much more complicated.

Racist attitudes were the cultural norm in the UK only a few decades ago
(certainly the 1950s) but they also have a large class element in them. The working classes can either be very tolerant (because nobody has taught them to be otherwise) or very intolerant, if foreign workers are seen as taking their jobs. It has always been that way, for at least a thousand years. German style supremacist attitudes have never really taken hold. Moseley's Brown shirts were soundly thrashed by a working class backlash.

[JavaScriptDonkey]

I used it because I meant it. My friend's experience of racism in New York just does not happen in London.

I don't know what your friend experienced in New York but I know many black people have experienced institutionalised racism in London.

There were quite a few riots along those lines not so long ago.

Granted nothing in comparison with the segregational history of the Southern US but still there.

Thankfully most of us have no concept of the meaning of Strange Fruit.

Alan Wilmot's experiences as a black Jamaican WW2 seaman in the RN are also worth reading.

[UndercoverElephant]

I am nervous of joining this thread. As always cultural animosities are deeply rooted in history. The Irish problem dates back about 400 years when a large number (most Scottish ?) settlers moved in and settled mostly in the NE corner at about the same time that Oliver Cromwell and later William of Orange did a fair bit of brutal conquest campaigning. The locals have never forgotten this, the nearest modern set up is Israel and Palestine. Then in 1922 England gave up trying to keep the rebellious Irish in the fold, apart from the NE corner which was at the time still majority loyalist.

There was a lot of blatant discrimination against original locals in NI and this became the Troubles in the 70s and 80s until the politicians got together in the 90s and relative peace since then. Unfortunately the underlying problems remain, and when central government subsidies start to dry up as they inevitably must, they will return.

It isn't racism, its much more complicated.

Racist attitudes were the cultural norm in the UK only a few decades ago
(certainly the 1950s) but they also have a large class element in them. The working classes can either be very tolerant (because nobody has taught them to be otherwise) or very intolerant, if foreign workers are seen as taking their jobs. It has always been that way, for at least a thousand years. German style supremacist attitudes have never really taken hold. Moseley's Brown shirts were soundly thrashed by a working class backlash.

Yes.