Paratroopers readied for future social unrest in UK

[featherstick]

I love the air of injured self-righteousness in the Socialist Worker article.

Personally, if riots kick off in Britain again, I'd be much happier to have a couple of hundred experienced hardnut Paras with batons and shields than a bunch of frightened squaddies with automatic weapons backing the police up.

Careful what you wish for.
I'd prefer people trained in law and responsible for their actions, all things considered. (and our own police/TSG thugs are bad enough).
I grant you, its more difficult to kill so many people if we just give them batons, but even the police manage to kill innocent people, and they dont spend their days chanting "Kill Kill Kill" whilst charging with bayonets.

(lifted from wikipedia entry for bloody sunday)

John (Jackie) Duddy (17). Shot in the chest in the car park of Rossville flats. Four witnesses stated Duddy was unarmed and running away from the paratroopers when he was killed. Three of them saw a soldier take deliberate aim at the youth as he ran. He is the uncle of the Irish boxer John Duddy.[38]


Patrick Joseph Doherty (31). Shot from behind while attempting to crawl to safety in the forecourt of Rossville flats. Doherty was the subject of a series of photographs, taken before and after he died by French journalist Gilles Peress. Despite testimony from "Soldier F" that he had fired at a man holding and firing a pistol, Widgery acknowledged that the photographs showed Doherty was unarmed, and that forensic tests on his hands for gunshot residue proved negative.[38][40]

Bernard McGuigan (41). Shot in the back of the head when he went to help Patrick Doherty. He had been waving a white handkerchief at the soldiers to indicate his peaceful intentions.[6]

Hugh Pious Gilmour (17). Shot through his right elbow, the bullet then entering his chest as he ran from the paratroopers on Rossville Street.[38] Widgery acknowledged that a photograph taken seconds after Gilmour was hit corroborated witness reports that he was unarmed, and that tests for gunshot residue were negative.[6]

Kevin McElhinney (17). Shot from behind while attempting to crawl to safety at the front entrance of the Rossville Flats. Two witnesses stated McElhinney was unarmed.[38]

Michael Gerald Kelly (17). Shot in the stomach while standing near the rubble barricade in front of Rossville Flats. Widgery accepted that Kelly was unarmed.[38]

John Pius Young (17). Shot in the head while standing at the rubble barricade. Two witnesses stated Young was unarmed.[38]

William Noel Nash (19). Shot in the chest near the barricade. Witnesses stated Nash was unarmed and going to the aid of another when killed.[38]

Michael M. McDaid (20). Shot in the face at the barricade as he was walking away from the paratroopers. The trajectory of the bullet indicated he could have been killed by soldiers positioned on the Derry Walls.[38]

James Joseph Wray (22). Wounded then shot again at close range while lying on the ground. Witnesses who were not called to the Widgery Tribunal stated that Wray was calling out that he could not move his legs before he was shot the second time.[38]

Gerald Donaghy (17). Shot in the stomach while attempting to run to safety between Glenfada Park and Abbey Park. Donaghy was brought to a nearby house by bystanders where he was examined by a doctor. His pockets were turned out in an effort to identify him. A later police photograph of Donaghy's corpse showed nail bombs in his pockets. Neither those who searched his pockets in the house nor the British army medical officer (Soldier 138) who pronounced him dead shortly afterwards say they saw any bombs. Donaghy had been a member of Fianna Éireann, an IRA-linked Republican youth movement.[38] Paddy Ward, a police informer[41] who gave evidence at the Saville Inquiry, claimed that he had given two nail bombs to Donaghy several hours before he was shot dead.[42]

Gerald (James) McKinney (34). Shot just after Gerald Donaghy. Witnesses stated that McKinney had been running behind Donaghy, and he stopped and held up his arms, shouting "Don't shoot! Don't shoot!", when he saw Donaghy fall. He was then shot in the chest.[38]

William Anthony McKinney (27). Shot from behind as he attempted to aid Gerald McKinney (no relation). He had left cover to try to help Gerald.[38]

John Johnston (59). Shot in the leg and left shoulder on William Street 15 minutes before the rest of the shooting started.[38][43] Johnston was not on the march, but on his way to visit a friend in Glenfada Park.[43] He died 4½ months later; his death has been attributed to the injuries he received on the day. He was the only one not to die immediately or soon after being shot.[38]

Thanks for underlining my point. Train squaddies in public order and give them batons and shields, and you don't get the above.

[gug]

Thanks for underlining my point. Train squaddies in public order and give them batons and shields, and you don't get the above.

As well you know, I didnt.

If troops are on the streets something has gone badly wrong already.

[biffvernon]

Train squaddies in public order and give them tea-trollies and cup cakes, and you don't get public disorder.

[featherstick]

Thanks for underlining my point. Train squaddies in public order and give them batons and shields, and you don't get the above.

As well you know, I didnt.

If troops are on the streets something has gone badly wrong already.

Perhaps you didn't mean to underline my point, but you did. Bloody Sunday was a colossal failure and has been noted above is still a low point for the Paras. It happened because troops who had been trained to kill people were sent into a domestic protest situation without adequate preparation. Absent proper training, protocols, appropriate equipment, and leadership, they reverted to what they'd been trained to do - fire their weapons at people. Since then, a huge amount of effort has been put into public order training in the UK Armed Forces (as well as peacekeeping and humanitarian aid delivery).

I fully take your second point about troops on the street, but I bet there were plenty of people in Croydon and elsewhere who were wishing for exactly that last year. There aren't enough coppers to stop that scale of mobile, flash-mob style, social-network-based "shopping with attitude" rioting.

The original article was a bit of rabble-rousing. It was seeking to put the WS spin on a situation that has long existed.

[jonny2mad]

traditionally you would read the riot act then if people didn't disperse within a hour you could kill them, gradually we have been getting softer and softer as a society till now we seem to feel sorry for rioters .

or as biff suggests feel the need to give them tea and cake

The sort of riots of the future I'm not sure anything will stop them, just don't depend on getting your food or supply's from the system because the system is going to fail .

And try to be as remote from it as you can when it does fail

[sweat]

traditionally you would read the riot act then if people didn't disperse within a hour you could kill them, gradually we have been getting softer and softer as a society till now we seem to feel sorry for rioters .

When was this tradition most the order of the day? Do you think it's a good course of action?

[gug]

I fully take your second point about troops on the street, but I bet there were plenty of people in Croydon and elsewhere who were wishing for exactly that last year. There aren't enough coppers to stop that scale of mobile, flash-mob style, social-network-based "shopping with attitude" rioting.

I imagine they were just praying that anyone would help them seeings as the police wouldn't.

There are enough coppers *especially in london where the trouble started* The day we deploy troops to quell disturbances is the day we line up with all the other despotic states.
If a state needs an army to keep "law and order" then its lost its democratic legitimacy in my eyes.

The army and policing of a democratic society dont mix.
Just ask Jean Charles Menezes - and i imagine the soldiers that gunned him down were better trained than most.

[Ludwig]

I fully take your second point about troops on the street, but I bet there were plenty of people in Croydon and elsewhere who were wishing for exactly that last year. There aren't enough coppers to stop that scale of mobile, flash-mob style, social-network-based "shopping with attitude" rioting.

I imagine they were just praying that anyone would help them seeings as the police wouldn't.

There are enough coppers *especially in london where the trouble started* The day we deploy troops to quell disturbances is the day we line up with all the other despotic states.
If a state needs an army to keep "law and order" then its lost its democratic legitimacy in my eyes.

With 13500 military personnel "policing" the Olympics, I think we have already crossed that line.

[jonny2mad]

traditionally you would read the riot act then if people didn't disperse within a hour you could kill them, gradually we have been getting softer and softer as a society till now we seem to feel sorry for rioters .

When was this tradition most the order of the day? Do you think it's a good course of action?

It was a while ago 17-18 century although I think the riot act was still on the books until 1967 . And it would depend under some circumstances yes if you think your going to get much worse violence hanging some people or shooting them publicly can work

Sometimes it back fires and inflames the crowd but it doesn't always, I think any future state that could survive would be the sort of state that would shoot rioters without batting a eyelid .

No state is likely to be loved in the future, and they may well find its better to be feared than loved, how did states operate in the past where conditions were much harsher .

hang drawing and quartering, crucifixion, impalement, I expect that sort of thing to return

[Lord Beria3]

The WS do have a spin, but they have a excellent record of analysing and noting objective realities going on.

[jonny2mad]

the ruling elite is preparing a violent crackdown against an inevitable social upheaval.

Will it be enough of a crackdown to stop anything, people nowadays might react badly to say the army shooting rioters the majority are the tea and cake brigade .

A friend earlier posted a youtube clip of a bus driver grabbing a teenager who was acting in a antisocial way on a bus, and basically the clip mocked the bus driver and said he was jailed for assaulting the teen .

Thats where we are today , the majority feel sympathy for the crowd who burn down some persons home or life's work, if the person try's to defend his home or business by shooting the arsonist he gets jailed .

I think our city's are toast, when you get real hardship you will see rioting and criminality like you cant believe and the state is too weak to do anything to stop it .

[vtsnowedin]

[......No state is likely to be loved in the future, and they may well find its better to be feared than loved, how did states operate in the past where conditions were much harsher .

hang drawing and quartering, crucifixion, impalement, I expect that sort of thing to return

I would hope not." Two bullets are enough for any____" .......Ahem... well you get the idea. The hard part may be getting young people to realise it is not an Xbox game and there is no reset button.

[featherstick]

I fully take your second point about troops on the street, but I bet there were plenty of people in Croydon and elsewhere who were wishing for exactly that last year. There aren't enough coppers to stop that scale of mobile, flash-mob style, social-network-based "shopping with attitude" rioting.

I imagine they were just praying that anyone would help them seeings as the police wouldn't.

There are enough coppers *especially in london where the trouble started* The day we deploy troops to quell disturbances is the day we line up with all the other despotic states. If a state needs an army to keep "law and order" then its lost its democratic legitimacy in my eyes.

The army and policing of a democratic society dont mix.
Just ask Jean Charles Menezes - and i imagine the soldiers that gunned him down were better trained than most.

But we've been doing that for centuries. People seem to forget that Northern Ireland is part of the UK. Quite apart from NI, look at the history of the Specials, the local Militias of the 18th and 19th centuries, Black and Tans in Ireland pre-1922, and the deployment of troops to "guard" the Olympics. I pretty well agree with you - and I also think the UK is doing its best to lose its democratic legitimacy. In Ukraine the other week I argued that Ukraine and Russia's managed democracies were what the UK was striving for.

[Ludwig]

In Ukraine the other week I argued that Ukraine and Russia's managed democracies were what the UK was striving for.

In the short term maybe... I don't think they will stop there if they can get away with it.

[energy-village]

the ruling elite is preparing a violent crackdown against an inevitable social upheaval.

A friend earlier posted a youtube clip of a bus driver grabbing a teenager who was acting in a antisocial way on a bus, and basically the clip mocked the bus driver and said he was jailed for assaulting the teen .

Thats where we are today , the majority feel sympathy for the crowd who burn down some persons home or life's work, if the person try's to defend his home or business by shooting the arsonist he gets jailed .

As long as the majority still have some sort of stake in property/wealth they'll mostly support the forces of 'law and order' - it's a basic instinct.

But strip the 'respectable working class' and the middle class of their wealth and we'll have major - probably uncontrollable - trouble.