What should the Govt do first?? (when TSHTF)

happychicken · Post by **happychicken** » 26 Mar 2011, 12:32

There won't just be rationing of food, water, fuel, power, but importantly also rationing of healthcare.

You just need to look at what's happening in Japan following the earthquake, tsunami & nuclear disaster to see what will happen with rationing - sick, elderly & disabled people are literally being left to die from pneumonia and hypothermia because the system can no longer cope with them.

energy-village · Post by **energy-village** » 26 Mar 2011, 13:04

happychicken wrote:You just need to look at what's happening in Japan following the earthquake, tsunami & nuclear disaster to see what will happen with rationing - sick, elderly & disabled people are literally being left to die from pneumonia and hypothermia because the system can no longer cope with them.

The Tokyo metropolitan area has 35m people living in it. If it ever had to be evacuated that would mean relocating 25% of the Japanese population. It’s hard to imagine how they would cope. Come to think of it, the London metropolitan area is c.13m; that’s about 25% of England’s population.

JohnB · Post by **JohnB** » 26 Mar 2011, 18:13

energy-village wrote:the London metropolitan area is c.13m; that’s about 25% of England’s population.

Fence it off from the rest of Britain, and we've solved our population problem

.

energy-village · Post by **energy-village** » 26 Mar 2011, 18:48

JohnB wrote:
energy-village wrote:the London metropolitan area is c.13m; that’s about 25% of England’s population.
Fence it off from the rest of Britain, and we've solved our population problem .

The little devils would escape and run amok!

They’d need to be re-housed.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 26 Mar 2011, 21:02

energy-village wrote:
happychicken wrote:You just need to look at what's happening in Japan following the earthquake, tsunami & nuclear disaster to see what will happen with rationing - sick, elderly & disabled people are literally being left to die from pneumonia and hypothermia because the system can no longer cope with them.
The Tokyo metropolitan area has 35m people living in it. If it ever had to be evacuated that would mean relocating 25% of the Japanese population. It’s hard to imagine how they would cope. Come to think of it, the London metropolitan area is c.13m; that’s about 25% of England’s population.

Yes, but the rest of England isn't a range of volcanic mountains. You can buy a house in Burnley for less than £20K these days...

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for ... 56718.html

energy-village · Post by **energy-village** » 27 Mar 2011, 00:47

UndercoverElephant wrote:Yes, but the rest of England isn't a range of volcanic mountains. You can buy a house in Burnley for less than £20K these days...

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for ... 56718.html

I think I'd prefer to take my chances on a volcanic mountain and keep the £15k in my back pocket.

JohnB · Post by **JohnB** » 27 Mar 2011, 00:55

energy-village wrote:I think I'd prefer to take my chances on a volcanic mountain and keep the £15k in my back pocket.

You could buy an acre or two of land and build a low-impact house in Wales for that. We've got the planning policy, and just need people to actually get on and do it.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 27 Mar 2011, 02:37

JohnB wrote:
energy-village wrote:I think I'd prefer to take my chances on a volcanic mountain and keep the £15k in my back pocket.
You could buy an acre or two of land and build a low-impact house in Wales for that. We've got the planning policy, and just need people to actually get on and do it.

I can buy two acres of land and build a low impact house in wales for £25K?

Seriously?

I have got £25K, and eventually I will need to escape from Brighton...

JohnB · Post by **JohnB** » 27 Mar 2011, 02:45

UndercoverElephant wrote:I can buy two acres of land and build a low impact house in wales for £25K?

Seriously?

I have got £25K, and eventually I will need to escape from Brighton...

http://www.eco-hamlets.org.uk/one_plane ... opment.php

The only low-impact development built with planning permission so far (under a different policy) is Lammas, and there's a planning application for a land based One Planet Development waiting for the result of an appeal at the moment. The policy also allows low-impact housing just outside existing settlements, where you don't need to make a living from your land, but have to prove you can achieve a challenging ecological footprint. I think we need someone to test the policy for real, with a nice simple and straightforward project.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 27 Mar 2011, 12:09

JohnB wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote:I can buy two acres of land and build a low impact house in wales for £25K?

Seriously?

I have got £25K, and eventually I will need to escape from Brighton...
http://www.eco-hamlets.org.uk/one_plane ... opment.php

The only low-impact development built with planning permission so far (under a different policy) is Lammas, and there's a planning application for a land based One Planet Development waiting for the result of an appeal at the moment. The policy also allows low-impact housing just outside existing settlements, where you don't need to make a living from your land, but have to prove you can achieve a challenging ecological footprint. I think we need someone to test the policy for real, with a nice simple and straightforward project.

Can you explain this to me, because I don't really understand. What does "residents must make the majority of their income from working their land" mean? How on Earth is anyone supposed to MAKE A LIVING out of 2 acres of land with no other income? I am unemployable - been out of the loop too long and am too thoroughly unbrainwashed - I make a small amount of money teaching people to forage for fungi but that is it. I have money in the bank, but I have no idea what I'm going to do when it runs out, which will be considerably sooner if I do this.

Post by **clv101** » 27 Mar 2011, 12:14

UndercoverElephant wrote:How on Earth is anyone supposed to MAKE A LIVING out of 2 acres of land with no other income?

Have a read of this:
http://www.ecologicalland.coop/sites/ec ... essful.pdf

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 27 Mar 2011, 12:15

clv101 wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote:How on Earth is anyone supposed to MAKE A LIVING out of 2 acres of land with no other income?
Have a read of this:
http://www.ecologicalland.coop/sites/ec ... essful.pdf

The title of that document involves the figure "ten acres."

ETA: Just as an aside, the title is a reference to E.F.Schumacher's "small is beautiful" book on buddhist economics. Schumacher lived for many years literally about 500 metres from where I grew up in Harestone Valley in Caterham...in a very large house with a very large garden.

Post by **clv101** » 27 Mar 2011, 12:21

UndercoverElephant wrote:
clv101 wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote:How on Earth is anyone supposed to MAKE A LIVING out of 2 acres of land with no other income?
Have a read of this:
http://www.ecologicalland.coop/sites/ec ... essful.pdf
The title of that document involves the figure "ten acres."

Should read beyond the title, they are all under ten aces: 2.5, 0.5, 1.5, 2.5, 6.5, 0.15, 5.5 and 2 acres.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 27 Mar 2011, 12:34

clv101 wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote:
clv101 wrote: Have a read of this:
http://www.ecologicalland.coop/sites/ec ... essful.pdf
The title of that document involves the figure "ten acres."
Should read beyond the title, they are all under ten aces: 2.5, 0.5, 1.5, 2.5, 6.5, 0.15, 5.5 and 2 acres.

OK...the mushroom guy sounds interesting, although even he is saying he needs another five years of experimenting to get it right. (he is yet to make a profit).

Next question...how on earth do you build a house for £15K? Any sort of house, let alone an eco-friendly one.

JohnB · Post by **JohnB** » 27 Mar 2011, 13:24

UndercoverElephant wrote:Can you explain this to me, because I don't really understand. What does "residents must make the majority of their income from working their land" mean? How on Earth is anyone supposed to MAKE A LIVING out of 2 acres of land with no other income? I am unemployable - been out of the loop too long and am too thoroughly unbrainwashed - I make a small amount of money teaching people to forage for fungi but that is it. I have money in the bank, but I have no idea what I'm going to do when it runs out, which will be considerably sooner if I do this.

We need to get more clarification of some of it, but as I understand it:

If it's in open countryside, you need to produce 100% of your basic needs from your land, either by consuming it directly, or generating an income. It's up to you to define and prove your basic needs, but it could be just what you need to survive. I think it would be ok to earn extra income off the land for non essentials and luxuries, but you must demonstrate you are living within the ecological footprint targets (2.4 global hectares per person now, reducing to 1.88 Ha in future). So you're likely to need 5 acres or more.

If it's just outside the boundary of an existing settlement, you don't need to make a living from your land, but must meet the ecological footprint targets. So you can have a job and buy your food locally, and live a scaled down version of a more conventional life. The ecological footprint of your job is set against your employers footprint, and as a tiny part of your share of the footprint of the country, so it doesn't affect you directly. So you could work for Tesco, BP, Monsanto or RBS (if your conscience allowed, or it's the only job you can get), but would probably have to walk, cycle or use public transport to get there. You only need enough land for your house, but it obviously makes sense to have a big enough garden to grow a fair bit of food. I gave the example of 2 acres because you could buy that much and build a house for £15k.

Simon Dale's house at Lammas cost about £2,500 to self build

With no rent or mortgage, very low utility bills and a simple life, a very low income should be all that's needed, maybe a few thousand a year.

As I said before, this is what the policy says, but it hasn't been tested yet. The interesting thing is that the main planning policy for Wales sets a target of everyone in Wales having an ecological footprint of 1.88 global hectares within a generation, so this isn't something for a few hippies, dropouts and other weirdos. This is pioneering how everyone will live within many of our lifetimes. From a recent discussion I've had, I'm not sure the Welsh Assembly Government quite realise how challenging it will be!