Revolting Youths

Discussion of the latest Peak Oil news (please also check the Website News area below)

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JohnB
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Post by JohnB »

Ludwig wrote:You have too much faith in human nature, John. In bad times, people look for someone to blame and are impervious to reason.

The Government has been quite open and honest about why these cuts are happening, namely that Britain is bankrupt. I don't see any sign that the population has taken this message on board.
But the government are also saying this is a temporary thing, and growth will resume soon. By the time the protesters are at university, or are at work and earning enough to start repaying their loan, BAU will have resumed, and everything will be wonderful, apart from being saddled with a debt that their parents didn't have.

No mention of TEOTWAWKI, and by the time they realise that they will be really pissed off.
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JohnB
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Post by JohnB »

12 year olds trying to keep their youth centre open are terrorists now :roll:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/dec/1 ... ice-picket
John

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featherstick
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Post by featherstick »

JohnB wrote:12 year olds trying to keep their youth centre open are terrorists now :roll:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/dec/1 ... ice-picket
See a lot of this in Putin's Russia - never thought it would happen over here.
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Post by tattercoats »

I can't recognise my own country here. What the h*** is happening to us all?

(Hi guys. Been busy with music / garden / life lately - hardly been even lurking here - but the last few weeks I've very much felt the need to read 'the news beneath the news' as I call it, and you lot are my first port of call for that.)
Green, political and narrative songs - contemporary folk from an award-winning songwriter and performer. Now booking 2011. Talis Kimberley ~ www.talis.net ~ also Bandcamp, FB etc...
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Ludwig
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Post by Ludwig »

JohnB wrote:
Ludwig wrote:You have too much faith in human nature, John. In bad times, people look for someone to blame and are impervious to reason.

The Government has been quite open and honest about why these cuts are happening, namely that Britain is bankrupt. I don't see any sign that the population has taken this message on board.
But the government are also saying this is a temporary thing, and growth will resume soon. By the time the protesters are at university, or are at work and earning enough to start repaying their loan, BAU will have resumed, and everything will be wonderful, apart from being saddled with a debt that their parents didn't have.

No mention of TEOTWAWKI, and by the time they realise that they will be really pissed off.
But what good would it do to tell people it's TEOTWAWKI? My observation is the people simply do not believe bad news until it hits them in the face - and then they react with panic and rage.

I know several intelligent people who've been told all the arguments for AGW and Peak Oil, but who simply don't believe them. It's definitely not that they don't have the intellect to accept them, it's that denial is a very strong response that overrides the intellect in, I'd guess, 80% of people.
"We're just waiting, looking skyward as the days go down / Someone promised there'd be answers if we stayed around."
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Post by biffvernon »

Photography just gets better and better. Here's a dramatic collection:

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2010/1 ... otest.html

Image

Where's elf n safety when you need it?
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JohnB
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Post by JohnB »

Ludwig wrote:But what good would it do to tell people it's TEOTWAWKI? My observation is the people simply do not believe bad news until it hits them in the face - and then they react with panic and rage.
It took time, but attitudes have been changed over wearing seat belts, drink driving, smoking and various other issues. Carefully drip feeding information over a long enough period does change attitudes without panic and rage. If the end of BAU and the benefits of a sustainable life were gradually introduced, enough people may well have taken it on board in time, but the longer it's left the more likely it will be that panic and rage is the outcome.
John

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Ludwig
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Post by Ludwig »

JohnB wrote:
Ludwig wrote:But what good would it do to tell people it's TEOTWAWKI? My observation is the people simply do not believe bad news until it hits them in the face - and then they react with panic and rage.
It took time, but attitudes have been changed over wearing seat belts, drink driving, smoking and various other issues. Carefully drip feeding information over a long enough period does change attitudes without panic and rage. If the end of BAU and the benefits of a sustainable life were gradually introduced, enough people may well have taken it on board in time, but the longer it's left the more likely it will be that panic and rage is the outcome.
But the Government is doing this already - I mean drip feeding the facts to people. There've been hints that massive changes are on their way, there's been encouragement of vegetable gardens, etc.

Seat belts and drink driving really don't merit comparison with Peak Oil. What's the similarity between being told you have to take a couple of seconds to do up your seat belt, and being told that, at best, you'll have to live a subsistence existence for the rest of your life?
"We're just waiting, looking skyward as the days go down / Someone promised there'd be answers if we stayed around."
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Lord Beria3
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Post by Lord Beria3 »

JonhB, there is a HUGE difference about smoking and the end of Western civilisation! Anyway, it amazes me how many of my friends still smoke after nearly 40 years of public anti-smoking campaigns.

So if that is the basis of your optimism, it seems pretty deluded to me!

As Ludwid says, PO will not come from energy but finance. As economies struggle to grow, their debts will become overwhelming, leading to defaults, economic bankruptsy and so on.

In those kinds of economic contexts, funding the kind of higher education system is simply pie-in-the-sky - and the protesters don't seem to realise that even on rosy BAU ideas of strong growth in the West decades into the future, the current system is STILL unsustainable.
Peace always has been and always will be an intermittent flash of light in a dark history of warfare, violence, and destruction
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Post by sweat »

Ludwig wrote:Ah, so the poor diddums protesters carry no responsibility for their actions?

If I get mugged while walking through an area that I know is dangerous, does that absolve the muggers of responsibility for their actions?
I actually really don't care about Charles or Camilla. :roll:
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Ludwig
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Post by Ludwig »

Lord Beria3 wrote: As Ludwid says, PO will not come from energy but finance. As economies struggle to grow, their debts will become overwhelming, leading to defaults, economic bankruptsy and so on.

In those kinds of economic contexts, funding the kind of higher education system is simply pie-in-the-sky - and the protesters don't seem to realise that even on rosy BAU ideas of strong growth in the West decades into the future, the current system is STILL unsustainable.
Quite. I actually don't envisage there being any universities, except maybe Oxford and Cambridge, 5 years from now; and we'll be lucky if there are schools. That's how serious the situation is.

In principle I am a left-leaning liberal, but I'm out on a limb among my liberal friends, who all blame the cuts on the old Conservative agenda of rolling back the state and handing the keys to the private sector. While that of course is the guiding principle of the Tory party, ANY responsible government would be making harsh cuts at the moment.

I believe that tax-and-spend is the way to an equitable and happy society, but what we've had hasn't been tax-and-spend so much as borrow-and-spend, a principle I'm very much opposed to for the simple reason that it's unsustainable. Of course, most Western countries have had to borrow to keep their governments and economies functioning; on one level, Britain didn't really have any choice, not being a major exporter (at least not relative to its population). In other words, I think we were always screwed because of this fundamental problem with capitalism.

Part of me is greatly saddened by the cuts to education and the NHS, but I'm not going to be one of those protesting about them, because unlike the protesters I know that there are no easy solutions.
"We're just waiting, looking skyward as the days go down / Someone promised there'd be answers if we stayed around."
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Post by lulubel »

sweat wrote:I actually really don't care about Charles or Camilla. :roll:
That's sad. I think most people do care about pensioners being attacked, regardless of who they are.
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Last edited by Guest on 14 Mar 2011, 19:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Ludwig
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Post by Ludwig »

TroubledTimes wrote:It might be a good idea to realise the difference between TEOTWAWKI and TEOTW.

To have an apocalyptic outlook where mankind is obliterated is perhaps a step too far, saving a virus of course which PO, climate change or economic catastrophe would make no difference.

Humans will learn the hard way to work with nature rather than against it, and find the sustainable population balance we had pre-oil.
All collapsing civilisations have been characterised by rampant violence. Of course the violence will probably extend over many years, until the world has reached a sustainable population - so no, it may well not be TEOTW, but it will be the end of a world you'd want to live in.

If that's what you call "learning the hard way", then you're right, but I suspect you had something cuddlier in mind.
"We're just waiting, looking skyward as the days go down / Someone promised there'd be answers if we stayed around."
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Ludwig
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Post by Ludwig »

lulubel wrote:
sweat wrote:I actually really don't care about Charles or Camilla. :roll:
That's sad. I think most people do care about pensioners being attacked, regardless of who they are.
Hear hear.

As for Charles himself - I seem to be one of the few people who regard him as basically a decent bloke. People have it in for him because in some idiotic way they blame him for Diana's death - or, in the case of many young people, simply because he's now old.
Last edited by Ludwig on 11 Dec 2010, 15:27, edited 1 time in total.
"We're just waiting, looking skyward as the days go down / Someone promised there'd be answers if we stayed around."
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