Revolting Youths

Lord Beria3 · Post by **Lord Beria3** » 10 Dec 2010, 13:37

I'm inclined to agree with you. If we are seeing violence and riots now (when despite all the problems we are stil in a very rich society) I dread to think what the situation will be like 20 years down the line when oil has become as rare as gold for a importer nation like Great Britain.

Ludwig · Post by **Ludwig** » 10 Dec 2010, 13:40

Lord Beria3 wrote:
What I see in the BBC video is police horses charging into a crowd of kids who are doing nothing wrong. I don't condone the subsequent violence but I certainly understand it.
What you appear to be ignoring is that gangs of kids were going around smashing windows, desecrating the Cenotaph and putting graffiti on Churchill! Yes, innocent students got bloodied which is a shame but probably inevitable when others are causing mayhem.

Police tactics are questionable, but if a fairly significant minority of young people are intent on violence, there is only so much they can do.

Regarding TT, my point is this. Some members were cheerleading the scenes at the Tory HQ as somehow progressive and a sign of the people revolting. What me and Ludwig were trying to say is that once violence becomes normal, it will only be a matter of time before in the event of petrol shortages or food shortages, the same mob will turn on innocent people. Anarchy is not in the interests of anyone of us, if we want a better future.

Justifying violence is a certain way of destroying what you are trying to achieve in TT - which I support btw.

Nice to be able to agree with you for once LB... Those condoning the student violence assume that violence is always proportionate, measured and directed; but violence doesn't work like that - once the adrenaline gets flowing, anything and anyone becomes a target.

As someone rather prone to anger myself, I know from experience how quickly it overrides all judgment and sense of fair play. Amplify that anger via the crowd effect, and who get something ugly, unmanageable that achieves nothing but breed destruction and fear.

I would like to say that I found the attacks on Charles' car utterly despicable, and that it's a sad indictment of the moral calibre of student leaders that they've refused to condemn it. In my university days, student leaders would never have condoned violent attacks on innocent people.

Incidentally, I'm interested to note that many of the people who, in another thread, regard a tap on the ear as child abuse, are perfectly happy to condone undirected mob violence.

JohnB · Post by **JohnB** » 10 Dec 2010, 13:43

Ludwig wrote:I sit on my arse because I don't think we have a hope in hell of avoiding chaos and violence. I went along to some TT meetings for a while, but my heart just wasn't in it. I felt most participants really didn't understand the scale of the economic shock that PO will produce, and were p*ssing into the wind. Whatever course one chooses as an individual should be based on a realistic appraisal of the likely course of events - and an appreciation that some forces in history are just too powerful to control. And PO more so than anything before it.

If the people involved in Transition don't understand what it's all about, stay there and help them to get it, or do what you can within the organisation yourself. I don't think a lot of the members of the group I belong to really understand what it's about yet, but I'm sticking with it and doing what I can to enlighten them.

I've started our Housing Group, and I don't think everyone in it is ready to be radical enough yet, but we're making a start. I'm also working on stuff that's far more radical. What I'm doing doesn't just cover our Transition area, but where it does it will be associated with our group.

Isn't it better to try to be part of a solution than to give in and watch things fall apart?

Is this topic evolving into a Transition discussion now?

extractorfan · Post by **extractorfan** » 10 Dec 2010, 13:44

I should think those enemy combatants will be safely locked away.

DominicJ · Post by **DominicJ** » 10 Dec 2010, 13:56

woodpecker wrote:They can only cover fat fees and more for a few students because they have very wealthy foundations controlling large pots of money built up over many decades and funded by many, many billionaires. Try finding the same in the UK.

Yeah, we chased away our rich decades ago, smart move...

JohnB · Post by **JohnB** » 10 Dec 2010, 13:59

DominicJ wrote:Yeah, we chased away our rich decades ago, smart move...

A lot of our rich kick a ball around a field, or do moronic things on the evil mind control device, so probably don't know what a university is

.

sweat · Post by **sweat** » 10 Dec 2010, 16:16

If you'd listened to any of the protesters then you'd know that it's not just about tuition fees, it's also about EMA being taken away and the cuts in general.
The violence was there for a reason, it was directed, an expression of anger and self defence against the attack on people that the Condems are making.
This is not a mob

Post by **clv101** » 10 Dec 2010, 16:36

sweat wrote:If you'd listened to any of the protesters then you'd know that it's not just about tuition fees, it's also about EMA being taken away and the cuts in general.
The violence was there for a reason, it was directed, an expression of anger and self defence against the attack on people that the Condems are making.
This is not a mob

The fees aren't even the main point.

The heart of the issue is the transformation of higher education from a public good into a private commodity. The fee increase is just the logical (and I'd argue pretty good) response to the terrible decision of cutting university funding by ~40%.

This is what the situation looks like:

We should be campaigning for public sector funding rates of higher education of 1%.

Ludwig · Post by **Ludwig** » 10 Dec 2010, 17:38

sweat wrote:If you'd listened to any of the protesters then you'd know that it's not just about tuition fees, it's also about EMA being taken away and the cuts in general.
The violence was there for a reason, it was directed, an expression of anger and self defence against the attack on people that the Condems are making.
This is not a mob

So, just to be clear, you think they were justified in attacking Charles' car and calling for his decapitation?

If you knew anything about Peak Oil, you'd know that our education system simply cannot go on in the form it has done, just like everything else in our privileged society that we've got used to thinking of as rights.

Kick and scream all you like, but it won't stop economic collapse. Higher education for the masses was just another aspect of BAU.

JohnB · Post by **JohnB** » 10 Dec 2010, 18:01

Ludwig wrote:Kick and scream all you like, but it won't stop economic collapse. Higher education for the masses was just another aspect of BAU.

If they don't know about it, or don't believe it because no one trustworthy has told them, they're bound to protest about the wrong things.

sweat · Post by **sweat** » 10 Dec 2010, 18:36

Ludwig wrote: So, just to be clear, you think they were justified in attacking Charles' car and calling for his decapitation?

If you knew anything about Peak Oil, you'd know that our education system simply cannot go on in the form it has done, just like everything else in our privileged society that we've got used to thinking of as rights.

Kick and scream all you like, but it won't stop economic collapse. Higher education for the masses was just another aspect of BAU.

I don't give a F--k about Charles, it's ridiculous to focus on that one event, it only happened because of police incompetence having them drive through protesters.
Peak oil has got nothing to do with how egalitarian a society is or can be.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 10 Dec 2010, 20:04

Ooops! http://www.fitwatch.org.uk/2010/12/10/r ... yesterday/

Ludwig · Post by **Ludwig** » 10 Dec 2010, 20:43

JohnB wrote:
Ludwig wrote:Kick and scream all you like, but it won't stop economic collapse. Higher education for the masses was just another aspect of BAU.
If they don't know about it, or don't believe it because no one trustworthy has told them, they're bound to protest about the wrong things.

You have too much faith in human nature, John. In bad times, people look for someone to blame and are impervious to reason.

The Government has been quite open and honest about why these cuts are happening, namely that Britain is bankrupt. I don't see any sign that the population has taken this message on board.

Ludwig · Post by **Ludwig** » 10 Dec 2010, 20:47

sweat wrote:
Ludwig wrote: So, just to be clear, you think they were justified in attacking Charles' car and calling for his decapitation?

If you knew anything about Peak Oil, you'd know that our education system simply cannot go on in the form it has done, just like everything else in our privileged society that we've got used to thinking of as rights.

Kick and scream all you like, but it won't stop economic collapse. Higher education for the masses was just another aspect of BAU.
I don't give a **** about Charles, it's ridiculous to focus on that one event, it only happened because of police incompetence having them drive through protesters.

Ah, so the poor diddums protesters carry no responsibility for their actions?

If I get mugged while walking through an area that I know is dangerous, does that absolve the muggers of responsibility for their actions?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 10 Dec 2010, 20:50